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Author Topic:   Prophecy vs Free will
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 121 of 168 (630811)
08-28-2011 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by IamJoseph
08-27-2011 9:36 PM


Re: Sorry Mods, Someone is Lying About History on the Internet
I think my statement is reasonably accurate.
No just more misrepresentations.
Earlier you stated that anything from the Roman Republic did not count, now you want to include the Punic Wars? It seems you are more than willing to move the goal posts back and forth depending on whether the evidence supports your claim or not.
Mighty Roman empire, as opposed Rome, never lost any war.
This is not a sentence in English.
You have been asked to open a new thread to support your contentions. Are you only willing to spout crap when it is off topic?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 9:36 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 10:06 AM Theodoric has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 122 of 168 (630813)
08-28-2011 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by IamJoseph
08-27-2011 11:46 PM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
My half brain says you are quoting a writings which was made long after the fact
Yeah I thought that might be your response. Your problem is that whether the prophesy was recorded and transcribed at a later date, it still and still is coming true, wouldnt you say
"You shall be witnesses of me in Jeruselum, Judea and the utter most parts of the earth."
"I will establish my church and nothing will stand in its way"
I think you are now confronted with an example (prophesy) of that exacally like the return of Israel to thier homeland, a prophecy that is far removed from any attempt at making it contrived
Given all the conditions and circumstances, the Church of Christ should not have survied. It should have died out like the untrue and false Messiahs, IT DIDNT
besides this type of prophesy which upsets or matches your definition of prophesy, Im sure you are aware of the Oral tradition that existed before anything was put in writing. Im sure you are aware that the text says the Holy Spirit was given to them to guide them into all truth (John 16:13)
Besides all of these facts, there is the strongest case from conservative scholarship that the Gospels were written in the 60s or 70s
At any rate the prophesy is far removed from any fear of tampering, wouldnt you say
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 11:46 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 9:56 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 123 of 168 (630816)
08-28-2011 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by IamJoseph
08-28-2011 12:29 AM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
Tell me if Islam is emulating Christianity and who, if any, is right:
We could include Judaism in this category as well. At any rate, that is not the point. Did Christ prophesy come to pass?
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 12:29 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 9:36 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 128 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 10:14 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 124 of 168 (630818)
08-28-2011 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2011 9:35 AM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
No.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 9:35 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 10:08 AM jar has replied
 Message 130 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 5:27 PM jar has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3746 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 125 of 168 (630821)
08-28-2011 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2011 9:30 AM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
quote:
Yeah I thought that might be your response. Your problem is that whether the prophesy was recorded and transcribed at a later date, it still and still is coming true, wouldnt you say
"You shall be witnesses of me in Jeruselum, Judea and the utter most parts of the earth."
Yes, that has occured. Christianity is the biggest religion of all. It says Christians will stand as witness - which can also mean of their bed deeds?
quote:
"I will establish my church and nothing will stand in its way"
And to hell with those bad Jews! However, it seems someone else had the same idea, and destroyed the church and dumped a mosqie on it. Knock-knock! Try these for size:
THOU SHALL NOT STEAL.
THOU SHALL NOT COVET WHAT IS NOT YOURS.
THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS.
I can also quote a host of other magestic laws which does not appear on your radar. Does Islam have the same right as Christians, or will you knock off the mosque after you eliminate the Jews from their land? Its a wonderful future ahead for humanity - thanks to two big kings who make up any beliefs they like, and cancel any that come in the way. Who's next?
quote:
Given all the conditions and circumstances, the Church of Christ should not have survied. It should have died out like the untrue and false Messiahs, IT DIDNT
Yes and no. There is Islam, which makes all the same claims and displays the same agenda and aspirations. Will you two share the spoils or confront each other after the Jews are gone?
quote:
besides this type of prophesy which upsets or matches your definition of prophesy, Im sure you are aware of the Oral tradition
The oral tradition was rejected by Christianity. It contains stuff directly from Moses, but which does not sit well with you.
You see, laws and verses which have become so sacred to Christians and to Muslims, are after all said and done given with only one purpose: as a testing, to see how you will turn. Like Abraham, or like all the above you are so proud of - fostering the genocide of a 4,000 year nation as your entire claim to fame, and even boasting of it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 9:30 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 5:53 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3746 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 126 of 168 (630824)
08-28-2011 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Theodoric
08-28-2011 9:07 AM


Re: Sorry Mods, Someone is Lying About History on the Internet
quote:
No just more misrepresentations.
Earlier you stated that anything from the Roman Republic did not count, now you want to include the Punic Wars? It seems you are more than willing to move the goal posts back and forth depending on whether the evidence supports your claim or not.
The Roman 'empire' emerged after the period it was a republic.
The evidences, aside from belief and alledged prophesy, say the Gospels was written by Romans and Greeks, not by Jews, and long after its contemporary setting. It is blatant that both the replacement religions of Christianity and Islam cannot be equally right. The common anomaly is both make unsubstantiated claims about the Jews, none have a shred of evidence, nothing they charge is typical of Jewish history and both contradict each other's revelations - except that both want to commit genicide again. I say, even if everything both say is true, they still have no right to have an agenda of genocide for 2000 years. And all Christians and Muslims are pretending they don't know what they are doing.
What is going to stop this insanity - any prophetic tips?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2011 9:07 AM Theodoric has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3746 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 127 of 168 (630825)
08-28-2011 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
08-28-2011 9:36 AM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
If one is handicapped they cannot also be limited.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 9:36 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 10:33 AM IamJoseph has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3746 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 128 of 168 (630826)
08-28-2011 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2011 9:35 AM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
quote:
Tell me if Islam is emulating Christianity and who, if any, is right:
We could include Judaism in this category as well.
Of course! Are not the Jews saying your belief is hereby fulfilled away, you cannot occupy your own homeland and that you will get no salvation if you don't sign on the bottom line? Your prophesy of doom is faltering, no?
quote:
At any rate, that is not the point. Did Christ prophesy come to pass?
No! It did not concerning its core prophesy about Israel. There are 1000s of brick walls standing and Israel is returned. Is that the greatest calamaity, or something good? What then is your answer for those bad Jews?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 9:35 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 129 of 168 (630832)
08-28-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by IamJoseph
08-28-2011 10:08 AM


Yet more word salad from IamJoseph
I'm sorry but what the hell does that even mean?
Do you ever actually reply to what is posted?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 10:08 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 130 of 168 (630855)
08-28-2011 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
08-28-2011 9:36 AM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
Jar writes
No.
, to the title "Come let us reason together". I didnt write that, IMJ did. Its a nice sentiment from him to me.
I do think it Ironic that you of all people accuse someone else of not responding to what is actually written. You have, 'not responding', down to an art form
You accusing someone else of that tendency, is priceless and one for the ages
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 9:36 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 5:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 131 of 168 (630856)
08-28-2011 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2011 5:27 PM


Resond to what is actually written
Did you ask "Did Christ prophesy come to pass?"
I responded "No."
How is that not responding?
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 5:27 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 5:57 PM jar has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 132 of 168 (630858)
08-28-2011 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by IamJoseph
08-28-2011 9:56 AM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
And to hell with those bad Jews! However, it seems someone else had the same idea, and destroyed the church and dumped a mosqie on it. Knock-knock! Try these for size:
THOU SHALL NOT STEAL.
THOU SHALL NOT COVET WHAT IS NOT YOURS.
THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS.
I can also quote a host of other magestic laws which does not appear on your radar. Does Islam have the same right as Christians, or will you knock off the mosque after you eliminate the Jews from their land? Its a wonderful future ahead for humanity - thanks to two big kings who make up any beliefs they like, and cancel any that come in the way. Who's next?
Its like i am in a discussion with two different people. At times you seem steady and rational, then the next moment you seem irrational and paranoid.
Im not mad at anyone and I dont hate anyone, except my mother-in-law. Look, she started,not me. Ive tried my best to get along with that evil, no good for nothing. No Im just kidding, but she is hateful
I didnt kill anyone, Im fairly certain Jesus and true Christianity did not
The oral tradition was rejected by Christianity. It contains stuff directly from Moses, but which does not sit well with you.
Since the majority of the early Chruch were Jews and the Oral tradition was a commom practice, it would stand to reason they employed it as well
Why do you think things from Moses would not set well with me in particular
You see, laws and verses which have become so sacred to Christians and to Muslims, are after all said and done given with only one purpose: as a testing, to see how you will turn. Like Abraham, or like all the above you are so proud of - fostering the genocide of a 4,000 year nation as your entire claim to fame, and even boasting of it?
This is kinda wierded out, Im not sure what it means
Could you elaborate
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 9:56 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 7:49 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 133 of 168 (630859)
08-28-2011 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
08-28-2011 5:35 PM


Re: Resond to what is actually written
Did you ask "Did Christ prophesy come to pass?"
I responded "No."
How is that not responding?
Where is my question or quote posted in Post 124. You responded to the airwaves
And NO, the word "No" is not a responsible response in a detailed debate
If you dont believe me answer the following question with a yes or no answer
Do you enjoy being a child beater Jar? Just answer Yes or No
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 5:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 6:15 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34048
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 134 of 168 (630860)
08-28-2011 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2011 5:57 PM


Re: Resond to what is actually written
You asked the question in the post I replied to. There are links that you could follow which will show that to everyone.
The question you asked is a question that is answered by the single word "No".
And by now I would have though you would realize I don't wander down even attractive rabbit holes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 5:57 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 6:29 PM jar has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 135 of 168 (630863)
08-28-2011 6:26 PM


In keeping with the theme of this thread, Prophecy (divine sovereignty) vs freewill, there is one example in the NT I think is unique to many others
That is the case where Christ called each one of the Apostles and different times and differnet locations
the question arises, how and why did they respond so quickly and immediately to the statement:
"follow me" It appears they dropped everything they were doing immediately and followed him
Did they already know him?
Were they already aware of his status at that time?
Did his presence as God have an immediate affect on thier freewill and overtook them
Did they do it willingly with full knowledge of what they were doing?
Since there appears to be no other Christians participating in this thread presently, be sides myself, all answers are welcome
In the meantime I hope Jaywill, ICANT, Buzz and others will provide a response from thier perspective
Dawn Bertot

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 8:10 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

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