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Author Topic:   Prophecy vs Free will
anglagard
Member (Idle past 923 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 106 of 168 (630750)
08-27-2011 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by IamJoseph
08-27-2011 4:22 AM


Wrong (Likely Due to Eurocentrism)
IamJoseph writes:
Mighty Rome was the greatest super power in history, bigger than Christianity and Islam combined
False.
See: List of largest empires - Wikipedia
The largest superpower by raw land mass was the British Empire at 33.7 million square kilometers ca. 1922 CE. The Roman Empire comes in at 17th place.
The largest superpower by percentage of world population was the Achaemenid Empire at 44% ca. 480 BCE. The Roman Empire comes in at fourth place (after the Achaemenid, Sassanid, and Qing Empires).
Please get your facts straight before making (I hope, unintentional) false statements.
Now back to Prophecy vs Free Will.
Edited by anglagard, : Didn't go far enough down the list, sorry Sassanids.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 4:22 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 5:29 PM anglagard has replied
 Message 108 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 5:33 PM anglagard has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 107 of 168 (630757)
08-27-2011 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by anglagard
08-27-2011 2:56 PM


Re: Wrong (Likely Due to Eurocentrism)
Land and population is not the best criteria. The British empire had near equivalent counter empires [French, Spain, Austrian]; the Persians lost to the Greek empire. There was no counter to Rome's might for many centuries on this planet. The Brits lost to America, India and Germany. Rome's greatest war was with the smallest province, by period and human toll, 66 - 135 CE; toll of over 2.5 Million - equivalent to some 30M today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 2:56 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 6:53 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 108 of 168 (630758)
08-27-2011 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by anglagard
08-27-2011 2:56 PM


Re: Wrong (Likely Due to Eurocentrism)
quote:
Now back to Prophecy vs Free Will.
This subject has already been resolved:
The only vindicated prophesy the last 2000 years is in a hard copy dead sea scroll dated more than 2000 years and prophesizing "YOU SHALL SURELY BE RETURNED."
Check mate applies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 2:56 PM anglagard has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 923 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 109 of 168 (630779)
08-27-2011 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by IamJoseph
08-27-2011 5:29 PM


Re: Wrong (Likely Due to Eurocentrism)
IamJoseph writes:
Land and population is not the best criteria. The British empire had near equivalent counter empires [French, Spain, Austrian]; the Persians lost to the Greek empire. There was no counter to Rome's might for many centuries on this planet. The Brits lost to America, India and Germany. Rome's greatest war was with the smallest province, by period and human toll, 66 - 135 CE; toll of over 2.5 Million - equivalent to some 30M today.
Indeed "There was no counter to Rome's might for many centuries on this planet."
Which century are you talking about? They were challenged every century. Carthage, Parthians, Teutonberg Forest, Goths, Huns, name one century they were not challenged. Hell, they even had to build two walls to keep the Picts from eating them for dinner.
{ABE} Is there anything you actually got right?
British empire had near equivalent counter empires [French, Spain, Austrian]
Are you referring to, in sequence, after 1588, 1815, ever?
the Persians lost to the Greek empire
Uh, Marathon and Salamis, 480 BCE kept the Persians out, Alexander (the Macedonian) ca. 330 BCE conquered the Persian Empire. Calculator says 480 - 330 =150, also what Greek Empire, that is, other than the Macedonian Empire under Alexander?
The Brits lost to America, India and Germany.
When did these imaginary Brits lose a war with Germany? Are you referring to the Hanoverian succession? Hardly constitutes a war.
Rome's greatest war was with the smallest province, by period and human toll, 66 - 135 CE; toll of over 2.5 Million - equivalent to some 30M today.
More than the Second Punic War? You know Hannibal was in Italy itself, elephants and all. The Jewish Revolt was hardly the greatest challenge to Rome, if not Hannibal, try Attila or Etruscia. I have a bunch more if interested.{/ABE}
It would be off topic for me to debate you on your apparent lack of historical knowledge in this thread as you clearly deny the very existence of the Mongol Empire along with the various empires of China, India, and Persia thereby proving my subheading is completely appropriate.
If you would like to challenge anything I may have to say about history, please be my guest and PNT.
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 5:29 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 7:16 PM anglagard has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 110 of 168 (630782)
08-27-2011 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by anglagard
08-27-2011 6:53 PM


Re: Wrong (Likely Due to Eurocentrism)
quote:
Which century are you talking about? They were challenged every century. Carthage, Parthians, Teutonberg Forest, Goths, Huns, name one century they were not challenged. Hell, they even had to build two walls to keep the Picts from eating them for dinner.
The early names you mention were a pre-empire phase of Rome, while with the others, 'challenging' the Roman empire does not constitute an equivalence.
quote:
It would be off topic for me to debate you on your apparent lack of historical knowledge in this thread as you clearly deny the very existence of the Mongol Empire along with the various empires of China, India, and Persia thereby proving my subheading is completely appropriate.
I did not deny any of those; they were too far off, otherwise they would have fallen to Rome. Distance does not imply equivalence. My history is not in error: the Roman empire is universally regarded the most powerful one of its time, as well as one which had no similar equivalent opposition in any other time since then. No nation had a hope of withstanding a war with Rome; victory was inevitable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 6:53 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 8:13 PM IamJoseph has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 169 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 111 of 168 (630784)
08-27-2011 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by IamJoseph
08-27-2011 4:22 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
Right."Know for a surety your seed shall be in bondage." If you also apply some insight, this was said before the Jewish nation was born, to Abram, before he even had a seed. Obviously, one cannot sin before they are born, making the charge applicable to the burden of monotheism and incur the wrath of divine king nations. That is precisely what occured.
If you have some valid point to make by this statement, then I wish you would. Is your implication that Gods insight prophecy somehow forced said Israelites to disobey him at nearly every turn. Is that you implication?
Or do you agree with me that your own source represents them (not every single one) as stiffnecked and rebellious
LOL. Jews happen to be the only nation in the middle-east which prevailed. Please show me the verse where it says what you post! My version says they will be returned via a small remnant. You cannot write your own versions and leave out all actual prophesies.
As we already discussed survival is not a sign of acceptance And dont get me wrong I am not anti-Semetic. I am pro-humanity and pro-reason, which makes it impossible for me to look at the OT and suggest the jews were the shinining stars you suggest. First you want me to believe your text, then you ask me to ignore the most prominent fact contained in it
The verse where it says it is "
Yes:
"We will never support the return of the Jews to their homeland because they rejected JC"
- Pope not so Pius at the helm of Europe's holocaust. Does it mean Christianity must be taken over by Muslims because they rejected Mohammed - or does your logic only apply to Jews?
this is where you will have a bit of a problem, whitewashing me with people using the same title. I know nothing about or am I interested in thier political views. I hope the return of the Jews to thier homeland is what the prophecy is referencing.
Simply put it was God due to the continued disobedience by Israel on a whole that led them into captivity, time and time again
These people do not exist. The Gospels never existed at this time. The notion of Gospels according to Mathew, affirms only someone else is writing it. We are not even told the author and it is subscribed to one without a second name. Have you seriously not wondered why we do not have a shred of Hebrew Gospels, or one of Greek of its time - even with so many alledged writers?
The history concerning those events however did exist at that time. All from Wiki, so as to not be accused of advocating apologetics
All from Wiki
Tacitus on Christ
[qs/]The passage, which has been subjected to much scholarly analysis, follows a description of the six-day fire that burned much of Rome in July 64 AD and was thought by some Romans to have been set by Emperor Nero himself.[2]
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Juda, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.[4]
Pliny the Younger. However, these are generally references to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus. Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions Christus, without many historical details (see also: Tacitus on Jesus). There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius. (According to Suetonius, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the reign of emperor Claudius (c. AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the instigation of Chrestus".[78][79] Mention in Acts of "After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome."
Charles Guignebert (Professor of the History Of Christianity at the Sorbonne), while rejecting the Jesus Myth theory and feeling that the Epistles of Paul were sufficient to prove the historical existence of Jesus, said "all the pagan and Jewish testimonies, so-called, afford us no information of any value about the life of Jesus, nor even any assurance that he ever lived."[80][81]
[edit] Pliny the Younger
Pliny the Younger (c. 61 - c. 112), the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajan c. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus".
Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshiped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.[82]
Charles Guignebert, who does not doubt that Jesus of the Gospels lived in Gallilee in the 1st century, nevertheless dismisses this letter as acceptable historical evidence: "Only the most robust credulity could reckon this assertion as admissible evidence for the historicity of Jesus"[83]
[edit] Tacitus
Main article: Tacitus on Christ
Tacitus (c. 56—c. 117), writing c. 116, included in his Annals a mention of Christianity and "Christus", the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah". In describing Nero's persecution of this group following the Great Fire of Rome c. 64, he wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.[84]
There have been suggestions that this was a Christian interpolation but most scholars conclude that the passage was written by Tacitus.[85] For example, R. E. Van Voorst noted the improbability that later Christians would have interpolated "such disparaging remarks about Christianity".[86]
There is disagreement about what this passage proves, since Tacitus does not reveal the source of his information.[87] Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote that: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign."[88]
Tacitus may have used official sources from a Roman archive. Tacitus drew on many earlier historical works now lost to us in the Annals. The description of the suppression of Christianity, calling it a superstition for instance, is not based on any statements Christians may have made to Tacitus. However, if Tacitus was copying from an official source some would expect him to not incorrectly label Pilate a procurator, as he was a prefect.[89]
Charles Guignebert argued "So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless".[90]
R. T. France concludes that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he has heard through Christians.[91][92]
Gerd Theissen and Annette Merz conclude that Tacitus gives us a description of widespread prejudices about Christianity and a few precise details about "Christus" and Christianity, the source of which remains unclear. Christus was a Jew and a criminal whom Pontius Pilate had executed. He authored a new religious movement that began in Judea and was called Christianity which was widespread around the city of Rome during Nero's reign.[93]
[edit] Suetonius
Main article: Suetonius on Christ
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus (c. 69—140) wrote the following in his Lives of the Twelve Caesars about riots which broke out in the Jewish community in Rome under the emperor Claudius:
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [ Claudius ] expelled them [the Jews] from Rome".[94]
The event was noted in Acts 18:2. The term Chrestus also appears in some later texts applied to Jesus, and Robert Graves,[95] among others,[96] consider it a variant spelling of Christ, or at least a reasonable spelling error. On the other hand, Chrestus was itself a common name, particularly for slaves, meaning good or useful.[97] With regard to Jewish persecution around the time to which this passage refers, the Jewish Encyclopedia states: "... in 49—50, in consequence of dissensions among them regarding the arrival of the Messiah, they were forbidden to hold religious services. The leaders in the controversy, and many others of the Jewish citizens, left the city".[98]
Another suggestion as to why Chrestus may not be Christ is based on the fact Suetonius refers to Jews not Christians in this passage, even though in his Life of Nero he shows some knowledge of the sect's existence. One solution to this problem, however, lies in the fact that the early Christians had not yet separated from their Jewish origin at this time.[99][100][101] Even discounting all these points, this passage offers little information about Jesus himself.[88]
Mara bar Sarapion
Mara was a Syrian Stoic.[120] While imprisoned by the Romans, Mara wrote a letter to his son that includes the following text:
For what benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death, seeing that they received as retribution for it famine and pestilence? Or the people of Samos by the burning of Pythagoras, seeing that in one hour the whole of their country was covered with sand? Or the Jews by the murder of their Wise King, seeing that from that very time their kingdom was driven away from them? For with justice did God grant a recompense to the wisdom of all three of them. For the Athenians died by famine; and the people of Samos were covered by the sea without remedy; and the Jews, brought to desolation and expelled from their kingdom, are driven away into every land. Nay, Socrates did not die, because of Plato; nor yet Pythagoras, because of the statue of Hera; nor yet the Wise King, because of the new laws which he enacted.[121]
Composed sometime between 73 AD and the 3rd century, some scholars believe this describes the fall of Jerusalem as the gods' punishment for the Jews having killed Jesus because they infer that Jesus must be "the wise king" referred to by Mara.[120]
[edit] The Talmud
See also: Jesus in the Talmud and Yeshu
The Babylonian Talmud in a few rare instances likely or possibly refers to Jesus using the terms "Yeshu," "Yeshu ha-Notzri," "ben Satda," and "ben Pandera." These references probably date back to the Tannaitic period (70—200 CE).[120] One important reference relates the trial and execution of Jesus and his disciples.[120] It includes this text:
It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and God said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him." Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.[122]
These early possible references to Jesus have little historical information independent from the gospels, but they do seem to reflect the historical Jesus as a man who had disciples and was crucified during Passover.[120] They reflect hostility toward Jesus among the rabbis.[120] The story of Jesus' trial asserts that Jesus was guilty of a capital crime, and defends the court against the early Christian criticism that Jesus' trial had been hasty.[120] Another aspect of this record is that it varies dramatically from the records in the gospels. Instead of twelve disciples, there are only five, and only one name, that of Matai, even resembles those of the disciples in the gospels. Other differences include hanging instead of crucifixion, a call for witnesses to his defense and the disciples all being sentenced to death after their own trials.
It is taught: Yeshu had five disciples - Matai, Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah. They brought Matai [before the judges]. He said to them: Will Matai be killed? It is written (Psalm 42:2) "When [=Matai] shall (I) come and appear before God." They said to him: Yes, Matai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 41:5) "When [=Matai] shall (he) die and his name perish." They brought Nekai. He said to them: Will Nekai be killed? It is written (Exodus 23:7) "The innocent [=Naki] and the righteous you shall not slay." They said to him: Yes, Nekai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 10:8) "In secret places he slay the innocent [=Naki]." They brought Netzer. He said to them: Will Netzer be killed? It is written (Isaiah 11:1) "A branch [=Netzer] shall spring up from his roots." They said to him: Yes, Netzer will be killed as it is written (Isaiah 14:19) "You are cast forth out of your grave like an abominable branch [=Netzer]." They brought Buni. He said to them: Will Buni be killed? It is written (Exodus 4:22) "My son [=Beni], my firstborn, Israel." They said to him: Yes, Buni will be killed as it is written (Exodus 4:23) "Behold, I slay your son [=Bincha] your firstborn." They brought Todah. He said to them: Will Todah be killed? It is written (Psalm 100:1) "A Psalm for thanksgiving [=Todah]." They said to him: Yes, Todah will be killed as it is written (Psalm 50:23) "Whoever sacrifices thanksgiving [=Todah] honors me."[122]
Scholars who promote the conclusion that Jesus is a myth sometimes use this early rabbinic literature to argue that the Jesus stories of the gospels derive from a Jewish teacher in the 1st or 2nd century BCE.[123]
Louis Jacobs writes that Jewish "attitudes towards the personality of Jesus, and on how Jews should view Jesus from the point of view of Judaism, vary from the belief that Jesus is not a historical figure at all to the acceptance of Jesus as an ancient Jewish ‘Rabbi’ or profound ethical teacher, a view rejected by all Orthodox Jews and by many Reform Jews. The whole question is befogged by the impossibility of disentangling the historical Jesus from the Jesus of Paul and the Synoptic Gospels, and by the central role that Jesus occupies in the Christian religion."[124]
[edit] Dead Sea Scrolls
Main article: Dead Sea Scrolls
The Dead Sea scrolls are first century or older writings that show the language and customs of some Jews of Jesus' time.[125] According to clergyman and New Testament scholar Henry Chadwick, similar uses of languages and viewpoints recorded in the New testament and the Dead Sea scrolls are valuable in showing that the New Testament portrays the first century period that it reports and is not a product of a later period.[126][127]
[edit] Others
Thallus, of whom very little is known, wrote a history from the Trojan War to, according to Eusebius, 109 BC. No work of Thallus survives. There is one reference to Thallus having written about events beyond 109 BC. Julius Africanus, writing c. 221, while writing about the crucifixion of Jesus, mentioned Thallus. Thus:
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.[128]
Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, wrote:
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.[129]
Celsus wrote, about 180, a book against the Christians, which is now only known through Origen's refutation of it. Celsus apparently accused Jesus of being a magician and a sorcerer[130] and is quoted as saying that Jesus was a "mere man".[131] F. F. Bruce noted that Celsus, in seeking to discredit Jesus, sought to explain his miracles rather than claim they never occurred.[132]
The Acts of Pilate is purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius (thus, it would have been among the commentarii principis). It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology (c. 150) to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus. He said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the "Acts of Pontius Pilate".[133] With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Roman Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.[134] There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, and though it is generally thought to have been inspired by Justin's reference (and thus to post-date his Apology), it is possible that Justin mentioned this text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.[135]
Ancient Christian creeds
Main article: Creed
The authors whose works are contained in the New Testament sometimes quote from creeds, or confessions of faith, that obviously predate their writings. Scholars believe that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.[167] Though embedded within the texts of the New Testament, these creeds are a distinct source for Early Christianity.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4[168] reads: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.[169] The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.[170] Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, "This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,"[171] whilst A. M. Hunter said, "The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony. It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability."[172]
Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found[173] that have been identified are 1 John 4:2:[174] "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God",[175][176] "Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel",[177] Romans|1:3-4:[178] "regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.",[179] and 1 Timothy 3:16:[180] "He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory," an early creedal hymn.[181]
Of course this demonstrates that the original sources and its surrounding history were around much earlier and long enough, for it to be identified with that era. Only someone with extreme prejudice would ignore these facts
The Roman archives of Tacitus, Apion, etc are loaded with descriptions of minute events with the Jews in Judea
If by minute events with jews in Judea, you mean Jesus his trial and crucifixtion, then I agree
The prophesy of the trial, as you intimated is not mentioned in history, is mentioned here
1) He will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey (the colt of an ass) (Zechariah 9:9). Fulfillment: Matt. 21:5; Luke 19:32-37.
2) He will be hated for no reason (Psalm 69:4). Fulfillment: John 15:25.
3) He will be betrayed (Psalm 41:9). Fulfillment: Matt. 27:3-10.
4) More specifically, He will be betrayed by a friend (Psalm 41:9). Fulfillment: Matt. 27:3-10; 26:47-48.
5) The price of his betrayal will be thirty pieces of silver (Zech. 11:12). Fulfillment: Matt. 27:3-10.
6) The betrayal money will be cast onto the floor (Zech. 11:13). Fulfillment: Matt. 27:5.
7) More specifically, it will be cast onto the floor of the Temple (Zech. 11:13). Fulfillment: Matt. 27:3-10.
8) The betrayal money will be used to buy a potter's field (Zech. 11:13). Fulfillment: Matt. 27:6-10.
9) He will not open his mouth to defend himself (Isaiah 53:7). Fulfillment: Matthew 27:12.
10) He will be beaten and spat upon (Isaiah 50:6). Fulfillment: Matthew 26:67; 27:26-30.
11) He will be "numbered with the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12). Fulfillment: Jesus was crucified as a criminal in between two thieves (Mat 27:38).
12) He will be pierced (Zechariah 12:10). Fulfillment: John 19:34
13) His hands and feet will be pierced (Psalm 22:16; cf. Zechariah 12:10; Galatians 3:13). Crucifixion foretold. Psalm 22 graphically prophecies the Messiah's manner of death. At the time the psalm was written (and long after), the penalty for blasphemy was stoning. Therefore, this prediction of crucifixion is particularly astonishing.
14) The Jewish Passover sacrifice and Jesus Christ's sacrificial death coincide exactly. The dates on which Jesus was taken by the Roman authorities, and then slain, also coincided precisely with the Jewish Passover. Jesus became the Passover Lamb, "without blemish." Just as the angel of death passed by those Israelites who put blood on their doorposts - so Jesus' sacrifical death also results in freedom from death and hell for those who accept His blood.
15) His bones will not be broken (Psalm 34:20; Exodus 12 states that the Passover Lamb's bones are not to be broken.). Fulfillment: John 19:33.
16) They will divide his clothing and cast lots for them (Psalm 22:18). Fulfillment: John 19:23-24.
17) He will be given vinegar and gall to drink (Psalm 69:21). Fulfillment: Matthew 27:34, 48.
18) He will say: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Psalm 22:1). Fulfillment: Matthew 27:46.
19) He will be buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9). Fulfillment: Matthew 27.
20) He will not decay (Psalm 16:10). Fulfillment: Acts 2:31
21) He will be resurrected from the dead (Psalm 16:10). Fulfillment: Acts 2:31, etc.
22) He will ascend into heaven (Psalm 68:18). Fulfillment: Acts 1:9.
These are a small selection of some of the prophecies relating to the death of Christ.
There is no scripture with equivalent validity.
I beg to differ, as you have just witnessed. That is, you do, consider the OT as a reliable source of history and prediction correct?
Its time that Christians and Muslims ceased being 'subject to Jews' belief systems, knock out all the thrash about Jews and raise your own beliefs as able to stand on its own.
Between you and me, you are the only one turning it into a war of words. No one is talking trash about Jews, we are discussing the history recorded in the Bible.
I dont consider mysel f any better than any living person, Jew or otherwise.
The only vindicated, provable prophey the last 2000 years is in the Hebrew bible and the dead sea scrolls. I am on the side of Christianity - but not in the mode Christians mean - that points to more disaster ahead for humanity waiting to hapen, and its got nothing to do with Jews, but only between:
NO SALVATION BUT THROUGH ME.
And
ITS A BLESSING TO KILL THE INFIDELS.
Wrong, besides those already listed another Jew made a prediction concerning the destruction of Jeruselem, long before it happened
IMJ, all anyone has to do, is suggest that the prophecy concerning the return of israel to thier homeland, is simply to suggest it was written in a general way, with no specifics of details
Therefore no reason to believe God was involved
In other words its to vauge and general to qualify as any kind of specific prophecy. It was a probable event
In 100AD all anyone had to suggest is that Christ's prophecy concerning the destruction of jeruselem, was written after the fact
The question for you and me is, do the prophecies in the Old Test testify of and fulfill Christ and and of course they do
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 4:22 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 10:50 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 117 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 11:36 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 923 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 112 of 168 (630785)
08-27-2011 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by IamJoseph
08-27-2011 7:16 PM


Sorry Mods, Someone is Lying About History on the Internet
Anglagard writes:
Which century are you talking about? They were challenged every century. Carthage, Parthians, Teutonberg Forest, Goths, Huns, name one century they were not challenged. Hell, they even had to build two walls to keep the Picts from eating them for dinner.
IamJoseph writes:
The early names you mention were a pre-empire phase of Rome, while with the others, 'challenging' the Roman empire does not constitute an equivalence.
Augustus, first Roman Emperor 27 BCE-14 CE.
Battle of Teutonberg Forest, Rome lost 3 legions (15k+) 9 CE.
Hadrian's Wall 122 CE+
Antonine Wall 142 CE+
Goths 238 CE +
Atilla 450 CE + (Battle of the Catalaunian Plains 451 CE)
Fall of Western Empire 476 CE.
If the Roman Empire was so all-powerful, why did half of it fall in 476, why did the other half fall in 1453?
I did not deny any of those; they were too far off, otherwise they would have fallen to Rome. Distance does not imply equivalence. My history is not in error: the Roman empire is universally regarded the most powerful one of its time, as well as one which had no similar equivalent opposition in any other time since then.
Hell, Hadrian couldn't even keep the Parthians out of Mesopotamia after Trajan's death. You mean to tell me that Hadrian or Trajan could have gone right on through the Kushan Empire and straight into Han China with no opposition? A laughable concept.
Also, any empire since then? Like the Mongol Empire (#2 after Vicki, Ed, and George), that took out half the Muslim conquests until the Mamelukes stopped them cold a thousand years after Hadrian?
Out of respect for the mods, this will be my last response to your misrepresentations, next is a PNT. Show up or be forever labeled.
Edited by anglagard, : Chill a bit, I really hate misrepresentations, particularly about history.
Edited by anglagard, : Transposed Augustus reign, that would have been embarrassing.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 7:16 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 9:36 PM anglagard has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 113 of 168 (630789)
08-27-2011 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by anglagard
08-27-2011 8:13 PM


Re: Sorry Mods, Someone is Lying About History on the Internet
Mighty Roman empire, as opposed Rome, never lost any war. The 476 downfall was an internal disintergration piece by piece and revolts of a new world order approaching. Other empires like Briton never reached the zenith of Rome nor battled the same calibre warring nations such as Hanibal - they took over native peasants in comparison, like Australia and the natives of America who had not yet possessed gun powder. The previous great war empire of Greece was made redundent. I think my statement is reasonably accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 8:13 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2011 9:07 AM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 114 of 168 (630793)
08-27-2011 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 8:06 PM


COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
quote:
Right."Know for a surety your seed shall be in bondage." If you also apply some insight, this was said before the Jewish nation was born, to Abram, before he even had a seed. Obviously, one cannot sin before they are born, making the charge applicable to the burden of monotheism and incur the wrath of divine king nations. That is precisely what occured.
If you have some valid point to make by this statement, then I wish you would.
It is a most valid statement which displays true vindicated prophesy. You have not given any such equivalence.
quote:
Is your implication that Gods insight prophecy somehow forced said Israelites to disobey him at nearly every turn. Is that you implication?
Or do you agree with me that your own source represents them (not every single one) as stiffnecked and rebellious
This has no alignment with prophesy. All Hebrew prophets were rebelous, but in a positive way. They were tested and they challenged Gd. They never acted as thoughtless sheap, perhaps the reason they were focused on. The Israelites were correct and right for demanding proof from Moses; the Europeans were not - they just accepted the most grotesque falsehoods without demanding any proof.
quote:
Yes:
"We will never support the return of the Jews to their homeland because they rejected JC"
- Pope not so Pius at the helm of Europe's holocaust. Does it mean Christianity must be taken over by Muslims because they rejected Mohammed - or does your logic only apply to Jews?
this is where you will have a bit of a problem, whitewashing me with people using the same title. I know nothing about or am I interested in thier political views. I hope the return of the Jews to thier homeland is what the prophecy is referencing.
How could any Christian deny the error of a Pope rejecting the right of the Jews back to their own land, while also fostering their genocide in Europe? Is this not an exposure of the stuff in the Gospels?
quote:
Simply put it was God due to the continued disobedience by Israel on a whole that led them into captivity, time and time again
Simply put, it was not Gd but Europe who did the evil deeds.
quote:
All from Wiki
Tacitus on Christ
The word Christ never emerged till 174 CE. You should read further what the writing is based upon by checking the legend numbers.
quote:
See also: Jesus in the Talmud and Yeshu
This entry could have been the only real reference a Jesus existed - the Hebrew being far more credible than anything from Europe. But this too is invalidated, written after the 3rd C, and the reference to Yeshu is coded writings, belonging to another period, with no aligning to the period Christianity refers to.
quote:
The Babylonian Talmud in a few rare instances likely or possibly refers to Jesus using the terms "Yeshu," "Yeshu ha-Notzri," "ben Satda," and "ben Pandera." These references probably date back to the Tannaitic period (70—200 CE).[120]

No it does not. The Babylonian Talmud was written in Babylon by Jews exiled there in 586 BCE. They were never privy to events in 1st C Judea.
quote:
The Dead Sea scrolls are first century or older writings that show the language and customs of some Jews of Jesus' time.[125] According to clergyman and New Testament scholar Henry Chadwick, similar uses of languages and viewpoints recorded in the New testament and the Dead Sea scrolls are valuable in showing that the New Testament portrays the first century period that it reports and is not a product of a later period.[126][127]
[edit] Others
This is totally false. The scrolls, when in the hands of Christians and Muslims pre-1967, refrained from releasing these writings precisely because it made no mention of Jesus or anything in the Gospels. Anyone can read the scrolls today and check this out for themselves.
quote:
Thallus, of whom very little is known, wrote a history from the Trojan War to, according to Eusebius, 109 BC. No work of Thallus survives. There is one reference to Thallus having written about events beyond 109 BC. Julius Africanus, writing c. 221, while writing about the crucifixion of Jesus, mentioned Thallus. Thus:
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.[128]
Nothing to do with Jesus.
quote:
Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, wrote:
Inadmissible 2nd C writings, with no contemporary evidences.
quote:
The Acts of Pilate is purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius (thus, it would have been among the commentarii principis). It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology (c. 150) to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus. He said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion,
Acts cannot be used to prove Acts.
quote:
Ancient Christian creeds
Main article: Creed
The authors whose works are contained in the New Testament sometimes quote from creeds, or confessions of faith, that obviously predate their writings. Scholars believe that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.[167]

There were no 'christian' communites - this term appeared much later. In 1st C Jerusalem there was only Nazerites and Ebonites - both never held the positions of the Gospels, the reason they expelled Paul from their groups.
quote:
Of course this demonstrates that the original sources and its surrounding history were around much earlier and long enough, for it to be identified with that era. Only someone with extreme prejudice would ignore these facts
No it does not.
quote:
The Roman archives of Tacitus, Apion, etc are loaded with descriptions of minute events with the Jews in Judea
Yes. They mirror the Gospels while pre-dating it!
quote:
If by minute events with jews in Judea, you mean Jesus his trial and crucifixtion, then I agree
You have no choice here. There was never a trial, nor was Barabus free in exchange - this was a Bin Laden type enemy of Rome and he would never have been released as claimed in the Gospels. If there was a trial, it would last less than a minute and would only refer to Jesus' violation of the heresy decree. Here, Jesus would have met the same faith as all other Jews.
quote:
The prophesy of the trial, as you intimated is not mentioned in history, is mentioned here
1) He will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey (the colt of an ass) (Zechariah 9:9). Fulfillment: Matt. 21:5; Luke 19:32-37.There is no scripture with equivalent validity.
The reference to Zacharia is ridiculous here. There was no person called Luke, a Latin name, nor any apostles. Paul is a real historical figure, but not as that subscribed in the Gospels. He never met Jesus yet his writings accounts for the entire Gospels. Paul was amost blind and could not write. It is a historical fact Pail was imprisoned by Rome when he tried to infiltrate Greek stories into the Hebrew bible. The premise of 25th December and Sunday are dirct lift-offs from Mitraish, not a co-incdence here. Of note is that the Jews would never accept the rejection of the Sabbath - they went to war for it in 66CE when a battle with the Greeks occured in Cesaereah. The Jews would never accept divine man - they went to war wth Rome against it - in the full knowledge they would loose.
The only mystery with Chritianity is how the people accepted such absurdity. The truth is they were totally enforced; the NT was forbidden to European Christians for 800 years - it was death to possess it. Only a Church cleric could read it to the people. Europe got ther belief via fiery pastors - it is wholly based on belief because it has not a shred of historical back-up. Now it is too late to overturn, making Christians victims.
quote:
I beg to differ, as you have just witnessed. That is, you do, consider the OT as a reliable source of history and prediction correct?
I regard the Hebrew bible as the most authentic historical writings humanity possess. Show us another reference of the Philistines, ancient Egypt, the medianites, moabites, the routes between Egypt and Canaan, etc, all of which have been proven as historical, anywhere else? The first mention of geograhical icons like Mount Ararat, Mount Nebo, the Tigress river, etc are in the Hebrew bible, in their correct locations. Which writings can you point to which proved a 3,200 year figure [David] and backed by archeological proof, or a 3,500 year Egyptian monolith mentioning a war with Israel? You cannot - so why question the Hebrew bible, or draw equivaences to the NT?
quote:
Its time that Christians and Muslims ceased being 'subject to Jews' belief systems, knock out all the thrash about Jews and raise your own beliefs as able to stand on its own.
Between you and me, you are the only one turning it into a war of words
If you call rejecting the term BORN OF THE DEVIL, etc, 2000 years of horrific villification, a holocaust and Heil Hitler salutes at the UN for 60 years denying Israel's history and rights as my problem then yes I am guilty. But also consider your POV again with some honesty. The Gospels created the Holocaust, more so than did the Nazis. Yet you point the finger at me!
quote:
Wrong, besides those already listed another Jew made a prediction concerning the destruction of Jeruselem, long before it happened
You keepo forgetting. King Solomon is proven as a historucal figure; not so any of the Gospel figures.
quote:
IMJ, all anyone has to do, is suggest that the prophecy concerning the return of israel to thier homeland, is simply to suggest it was written in a general way, with no specifics of details
Therefore no reason to believe God was involved
In other words its to vauge and general to qualify as any kind of specific prophecy. It was a probable event
It was specific with no other reading possible. Both the exile and the return, as well as it being fulfilled when it was least possible, are specific to historical occurences.
quote:
In 100AD all anyone had to suggest is that Christ's prophecy concerning the destruction of jeruselem, was written after the fact
So was the blood libel in medevial Eurpe lifted off pre-christian Greek archives: would like me topost these archves for you? The charges made against the Jews are not just highly offensive - they are not backed by any traditional history of Jews perpetrating such deeds. The Jews cherish and revere all 55 of their prophets - they do not kill them and dance at their death as per the Gospels and passion flicks. The Hebrew bible, which Christians claim to revere, commands that accusations have to be proven - not simply 'believed'. There is no proof of any of the charges, yet all Christians accept it. That is a crime as per the Hebrew bible and any bona fide court of laws.
quote:
The question for you and me is, do the prophecies in the Old Test testify of and fulfill Christ and and of course they do
The Hebrew bible and belief criteria only antithise the Gospels. Sad but true. the same applies wth the Quran. Both are in violation and contradiction of the Hebrew bible and of each other. I don't exect anyone to agree with me: more than half of humanity is hinged in negation of the Hebrew bible and of the Jews - as seen in the case with Israel today. This applies:
YOU SHALL NOT FOLLOW A CORRUPTED MAJORITY.
Christianitywill come of age when it ceases being a SUBJECT TO JEWS belief system. I see America as the only potential savior of this otherwise great religion - precisely because America rebuffed medevial Europe with its Constitution being based on the Hebrew laws. Europe was obsessed with the destruction of Jews and the Hebrew bible, affording it only cursory valie if and when it aligned with the Gospels. The Hebrew version of pristine monotheism was rendered a crime. Europe lost this battle as did Rome with the Jews.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 8:06 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 11:35 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 115 of 168 (630798)
08-27-2011 11:14 PM


LORD'S PRAYER NOT OF THE CHRISTIAN LORD.
Lord’s Prayer ‘totally Jewish,’ says US theological expert
By JTA
11/15/2010 22:03
John Dominic Crossan, former Catholic priest says, The Lord’s Prayer comes from the heart of Judaism to the lips of Christianity.
Talkbacks (21)
LOS ANGELES -- The Lord’s Prayer, widely considered to undergird the foundation of Christianity, is utterly, totally, fully Jewish -- there’s nothing in it that is particularly Christian, a theological expert said.
John Dominic Crossan, a former Catholic priest and now professor at DePaul University, articulates this thesis in the latest of his 26 books, The Greatest Prayer: Rediscovering the Revolutionary Message of the Lord's Prayer, released last week by HarperOne. Crossan is one of the foremost theological interpreters of the historical Jesus.
The opening words of the Lord’s Prayer are, Our Father, who art in Heaven, and the first two words are key to Crossan’s reinterpretation. In traditional Christian thinking, the prayer is seen as establishing a relationship between the individual petitioner and God, but Crossan takes a different view in his book and in recent media interviews. Within the context of Judaism in the 1st century CE, the term Father, or Abba in Aramaic, would connote a householder who must provide equally for all members of his family, according to Crossan. In that sense, God is The Big Householder in the Sky who exercises distributive justice and who would be appalled by the huge discrepancy between rich and poor, Crossan argues.
That concept reflects the radical vision of justice that is the core of Israel’s biblical tradition, Crossan writes. The Lord’s Prayer comes from the heart of Judaism to the lips of Christianity.
There is a huge discrepancy between what most people think Christianity is really about and what Jesus thinks Christianity is really about, Crossan said in an interview with the Religion News Service.
Crossan is an old hand at questioning Christian dogma and is one of the founders of the Jesus Seminar, a liberal Christian group. The Seminar has proposed that many of the miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, at least not as written in the New Testament, and that Jesus did not physically rise from the dead.

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 169 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 116 of 168 (630799)
08-27-2011 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by IamJoseph
08-27-2011 10:50 PM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
It is a most valid statement which displays true vindicated prophesy. You have not given any such equivalence.
Sure I have, Matt 24 and jesus' prophesy of the destruction of Jeruselum
Here is another. "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it"
I think anyone with half a brain and eyes at all can see this prophesy was fulfilled and is still being fulfilled
"it shalll not perish from the earth"
"You shall be witnesses of me Jeruselum, Judea and the uttermost parts of the earth"
Did that prophesy come true?
I believe even one of the historians I quoted, corroborated it
This has no alignment with prophesy. All Hebrew prophets were rebelous, but in a positive way. They were tested and they challenged Gd. They never acted as thoughtless sheap, perhaps the reason they were focused on. The Israelites were correct and right for demanding proof from Moses; the Europeans were not "
No No, were they rebellious and unrepentent as a people, according to the scriptures
Simply put, it was not Gd but Europe who did the evil deeds.
Europe made the Isralites in the Bible rebel against God?
Ill write more later there, homespun Ive got to run for now
tell me however if Jesus' prophecies came true
Dawn Bertot
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 10:50 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 11:46 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 119 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 11:57 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 120 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 12:29 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 117 of 168 (630800)
08-27-2011 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 8:06 PM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
RE NERO MENTIONS CHIRSTIANS Fraud:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UgO8fAJVVM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 8:06 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 118 of 168 (630801)
08-27-2011 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 11:35 PM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
quote:
I think anyone with half a brain and eyes at all can see this prophesy was fulfilled and is still being fulfilled
My half brain says you are quoting a writings which was made long after the fact, My other half brain says the temple desruction occured before with babylon, is hardly a brilliant exampe of rophesy and was predicted by King Solomon before the babylon destruction. The point is, Christianity was not even referring to a temple - they wanted to say that all of Israel and Jews were dead forever and taken over by Europe. Nor can this passion for another nation's death be unrelated to the takeover bid of reobbery and coveting or render it as done by Gd. The blood was on the hands of Europe, which has maligned the persona of a Jew by speaking such falsehoods of in his name of aspiring his own peoples' death. Its repugnant, and far from any notion of love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 11:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 9:30 AM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 119 of 168 (630802)
08-27-2011 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 11:35 PM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
The difference between the Abrahamic belief and Christianity and Islam; the latter two failed the test put to them:
Abraham, when told a city was to be destroyed, rebelled against such a decree:
'WILL THE JUDGE OF ALL JUDGES TAKE THE INNOCENT WITH THE GUILTY? THIS EVIL BE FAR AWAY FROM YOU"
He was blessed for his defense of others; while Christians and Muslims boast of their passion for the demise of Israel.
Moses, when tested that the Israelites would be destroyed and not returned to their land due to the golden calf event, and a new nation made, he challenged this decree and said first remove me from your book.
In contrast, the Muslims failed to welcome the Jews to their land during the Holocaust - they even sent help to Hitler and begged him not to let any Jews escape alive.
Those who point fingers at thers should first look in the mirror.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 11:35 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3754 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 120 of 168 (630804)
08-28-2011 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 11:35 PM


Re: COME, LET US REASON TOGETHER.
quote:
"You shall be witnesses of me Jeruselum, Judea and the uttermost parts of the earth"
Did that prophesy come true?
Tell me if Islam is emulating Christianity and who, if any, is right:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gzyeo1Z1I4&feature=related

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 11:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 9:35 AM IamJoseph has replied

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