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Author Topic:   Prophecy vs Free will
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3752 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 91 of 168 (630528)
08-26-2011 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Dawn Bertot
08-26-2011 1:14 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
Sure we do, we have the writings themself. Then we have the Apostolic fathers and early Christian writers, some of which were contemporaries with the Apostles
Those are all subject to doctoring. We do not have a single contemporary item, in a space-time from which we have 1000s. This is despite that the Gospels claims numerous writers in both Hebrew and then in Greek. Nor can we prove the Gospels by the Gospels. The earliest piece we have is 4th Century. In addition, we have all round contradictory depictions from the Hebrew, Romans and later Islamic writings. It is evidential that the Gospel writers were Roman, harbouring the same villifications when pre-Christian archives are examined; this says the hate did not come from the Gospels but the reverse applies: the Gospels came from the pre-dating hate. Even the notorious blood libel claims are seen in pre-christian Greek archives. All divine king nations hated the Hebrew laws.
It would be good when some real proof does turn up - this will put to rest any doubt that the apostles were real historical people. Christianity's genuine followers need this desperately.
quote:
Im sure you are aware there is much more proof corroborating the NT writings, than the old, correct? Even though I believe in thold as the word of God as well
No, I am not aware of this at all and do not accept such a position. We have over 70% of the Hebrew writings proven via archeological relics, scrolls and parchments confirming their datings and alignment with the ancient Hebrew books; we also have a 3,500 year Egyptian stelle which mentions Israel by name; and subsequent return of the Israelites to Canaan; a sovereign kingdom till 70 CE; proof of King David and two temple destructions. Most of all, we have hard copy laws introduced to humanity. We have 'NOTHING' whatsoever as proof of anything in the NT, and no laws.
quote:
Jesus said, "If you do not believe the words that I speak, then believe me for the miracles sake, because they testify of me"
That is fine, but if the miracles are frivilous they do not prove anything. Its not like Moses was raised, but only that Moses' position was contradicted - by miracles on display, this would not be followed by the Jews, as was the case, and appears to be a Roman/Greek view. Would a Christian follow Islam if such miracles were performed and it contradicted the Gospels? No - yet this occured after only some 4 centuries later, while the Hebrew measures 2000 years of belief and numerous existential wars.
quote:
Confirming his sonship and that he is from God is frivilous? Which of the prophets that performed miricles in private for one or a few people would you call vain or frivirlous?
See, this is your belief and I would not like offending. However, this clearly and totally contradicts the Hebrew belief and will never be entertained. Europe had no history of monotheism and it was natural to accept such a premise, while the Jews had a polar oppositte history than Europe. Is it not even a little strange that the Jews had wars with all divine king nations, including foresaking their nation in the war with Rome - that European Christian still does not accept the Jews as bona fide, and came up with the only singular impossible demand? Would you accept the Gospels had you been a Jew upholding the second command from Sinai as your conerstone belief? I doubt it! I say Christianity and Judaism are the two most aligned belief systems, even though Islam strictly adheres to the same oneness of God. This is because the moral/ethical laws are followed by Christians and Jews in a most powerful way, and these must be the foundation before any belief is touted. I say its ok to have a core difference in this situation. Both are sincere, so this applies:
AN HONEST DISAGREEMENT BEATS A DISHONEST AGREEMENT.
quote:
"which is it easier to do, tell the man to take up his bed and walk or tell him his sins are forgiven" Dont both prove he is God?
Forgiveness of sins is not a Gospel item but a Hebrew one. These are in the 13 Attributes and nowhere is forgiveness of sin more pronounced, and done without foresaking the law. But it is not deemed a sin in Christianity to worship images or divine man; it is with the Hebrew - so the issue of forgiveness is not relevant here. BTW, it is a false notion that humans must have images: one gets closest to belief when there is nothing seperating two points.
quote:
you havent demonstrated or shown form reason or the NT, why any prophecy or miracle was in vain or personal vanity. Unless you are saying God is vain
Changing water to wine or walking on water does seem frivolous. Confronting Rome would be more impressive. Of course I don't accept what is said in the Gospels of a Jew in Judea, which was a most fundamentalist time in opposition to pagan and brutal Rome - we need hard copy proof here!
quote:
Reuniting man to God is a failure?
Surely not. I accept that there is a hovering mystery in christianity, namely how such a premise was accepted! This says it was sanctioned via a mysterious compulsion, and this had to be in polar contradiction of the Hebrew: else the 'MANY NATIONS' from Abraham would not happen. It is marked by the seperation factor, otherwise all the religions would be one - and that is not many. The prophesy of the Hebrew is amazingly pristine and accurate.
quote:
Why is water into wine different than a burning bush? In each instance God is trying to impress upon his Apostle (Moses in solitude or the Apostles by themself in a boat), who and what he was, as he walked on the water
Yes, I accept this, but it does negate the fact that Moses' given power was used to introduce Liberty and inalienable human rights. In contrast, an entire nation had to sacrifice themselves when Rome challenged this peoples' belief. This was the greates show of belief in all recorded history and it is not even in the Gospel/Christian radar. When do you say the Gospels was written?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-26-2011 1:14 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 1:23 AM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3752 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 92 of 168 (630529)
08-26-2011 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Dawn Bertot
08-26-2011 1:46 AM


Re: One look at the problem
Read the second of the 10 Commandmentds again. Its the most wordy one of all. Is it fulfilled away?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-26-2011 1:46 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3752 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 93 of 168 (630530)
08-26-2011 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by PaulK
08-26-2011 1:47 AM


Re: One look at the problem
quote:
Therefore prophecies, as defined for the purpose of my post, cannot come into conflict.
They do so. The Gospels declared Israel is dead, not a brick shall stand and the Hebrew laws fulfilled away. None of those happened; its reverse did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 1:47 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 8:06 AM IamJoseph has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 94 of 168 (630554)
08-26-2011 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by IamJoseph
08-26-2011 2:29 AM


Re: One look at the problem
Since you are neither addressing my post, nor the topic I have no interest in continuing here. I suggest you engage Buzsaw in a Great Debate on the accuracy of NT prophecy instead since that seems to be where your interest lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 2:29 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 8:52 AM PaulK has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3752 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 95 of 168 (630563)
08-26-2011 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by PaulK
08-26-2011 8:06 AM


Re: One look at the problem
I think I zoomed into the core issue of your premise, without disagreeing with your post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 8:06 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 9:27 AM IamJoseph has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 96 of 168 (630570)
08-26-2011 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by IamJoseph
08-26-2011 8:52 AM


Re: One look at the problem
The core issue of my post is that ordinary prediction relies on causal relations and therefore can only be absolutely reliable given determinism, which is in contradiction to libertarian free will. Your replies don't address that. They don't even take account of the definition of prophecy used in my post, despite it being explicitly stated. So quite frankly if you really believe that you "zoomed in on the core issue of my post" you are seriously deluded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 8:52 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 9:32 AM PaulK has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3752 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 97 of 168 (630571)
08-26-2011 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by PaulK
08-26-2011 9:27 AM


Re: One look at the problem
quote:
determinism which is in contradiction to libertarian free will.
Determinism, that one can change a dead end situation, and free will which seeks to do what it pleases, both have the issue of the law to contend with. I say this also applies to prophesy - it cannot conradict the source it relies upon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 9:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 9:45 AM IamJoseph has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 98 of 168 (630574)
08-26-2011 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by IamJoseph
08-26-2011 9:32 AM


Re: One look at the problem
Irrelevant to both my post and the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 9:32 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 99 of 168 (630704)
08-27-2011 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by IamJoseph
08-26-2011 2:24 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
Surely not. I accept that there is a hovering mystery in christianity, namely how such a premise was accepted! This says it was sanctioned via a mysterious compulsion, and this had to be in polar contradiction of the Hebrew: else the 'MANY NATIONS' from Abraham would not happen.
Again, I will repeat it for affect. You have not demonstrated other than to assert why any prophecy or miracle in the NT is frivirlous.
It cannot be because it did not relate to humainity or have a purpose in humanity, it did
Quote it, then show why from Gods perspetive, since that is its source, why it would be vain
It is marked by the seperation factor, otherwise all the religions would be one - and that is not many. The prophesy of the Hebrew is amazingly pristine and accurate.
Then why do not all people follow Judaism. If its that obvious, why are there others besides Judaism
No, I am not aware of this at all and do not accept such a position. We have over 70% of the Hebrew writings proven via archeological relics, scrolls and parchments confirming their datings and alignment with the ancient Hebrew books; we also have a 3,500 year Egyptian stelle which mentions Israel by name; and subsequent return of the Israelites to Canaan; a sovereign kingdom till 70 CE; proof of King David and two temple destructions. Most of all, we have hard copy laws introduced to humanity. We have 'NOTHING' whatsoever as proof of anything in the NT, and no laws.
Your original contention was that we have no evidence of who wrote the books of the NT. Your examples of the OT only confirm they are not completely unreliable. They do not confirm authorship, as you intimated about the NT.
The NT can boast all the same archeological accuracy and has independant sources to corroborate, characters in said books
"We have NOTHING whatsoever of proof of anything in the NT", is more of an unobjective response, than an educated one
My original point or line of reasoning was to demonstrate whether you believed God was the author, of atleast the OT. You confirmed that in the positive
Would a Christian follow Islam if such miracles were performed and it contradicted the Gospels? No - yet this occured after only some 4 centuries later, while the Hebrew measures 2000 years of belief and numerous existential wars.
There were many religions prior to Judaism, shouldnt we follow thier tenets based on your line of reasoning
It only remains for you to demonstrate why the Prophecies and miracles are vain and pointless
If the Apostle Paul said, "the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ", why should I go with your assertion that the NT miracles are vain and pointless, because they did not conform to some theory about impacting humanity, as you suggest
Paul tells us the OT miracles and prophecies were the BASICS to get us to a higher plane and they did that very thing according to history and observation
Would you accept the Gospels had you been a Jew upholding the second command from Sinai as your conerstone belief? I doubt it!
History said millions did
I must still insist on a response concerning my definition of Freewill (choice) as opposed to your intimation that choices are only choices, with equivalent values
can you demonstrate why a choice is not as I described it?
thats why the world is in the mess we are today, taking simple understandable and demonstratable principles, such as freewill and confounding thier meanings, so as to cause confusion and doubt
You know the ole, "Woe unto him that calleth evil good and good evil", principle
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 2:24 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 1:48 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3752 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 100 of 168 (630706)
08-27-2011 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 1:23 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
Your original contention was that we have no evidence of who wrote the books of the NT. Your examples of the OT only confirm they are not completely unreliable. They do not confirm authorship, as you intimated about the NT.
Yes they do: we find that the names and events are aligned with relics and artifacts and specific verses. If the book of kings lists a war in king David's time, and we find the Tel Dan find shows a monolit 100 years after king David describing that war - it is proof of that 3,200 year writings; authorship is listed and can only be proven by its surrounding proofs. If we have the book of Exodus listing a war of the Hebrews with Egypt, and find a stone monolith dated 3,500 years old listing a war of Egypt with Israel - the authorship of the book is considered reliable. At least there are some hard copy proofs here and of a period almost twice as old as the NT.
quote:
The NT can boast all the same archeological accuracy and has independant sources to corroborate, characters in said books
Produce one single example.
quote:
It only remains for you to demonstrate why the Prophecies and miracles are vain and pointless
I already did. How is walking on water conducive to a prophet freeing his people from paganism, invasion and brutality?
quote:
If the Apostle Paul said, the Law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, why should I go with your assertion that the NT miracles are vain and pointless, because they did not conform to some theory about impacting humanity, as you suggest
Paul was also thrown out by the Nazerites - the earliest followers of Jesus. Paul never met Jesus and was a 4th generation secular Greek who is hardly a reasonable figure to refer to.
quote:
Paul tells us the OT miracles and prophecies were the BASICS to get us to a higher plane and they did that very thing according to history and observation
Clearly, he was wrong. The Jews have beaten Christians in every faculty, including on their own home ground and while under extreme oppression. When will Christans really get on a higher plane at the Nobels, money lending and controlling all the banks? Here are some European Christians dispelling Paul, at least that Christians are not on such a higher plane after all:
"If there is any honor in all the world that I should like, it would be to be an honorary Jewish citizen." --A.L Rowse, authority on Shakespeare
Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world."
-- Winston Churchill
"The Jew is that sacred being who has brought down from heaven the everlasting fire, and has illumined with it the entire world. He is the religious source, spring, and fountain out of which all the rest of the peoples have drawn their beliefs and their religions."
--Leo Tolstoy
"It was in vain that we locked them up for several hundred years behind the walls of the Ghetto. No sooner were their prison gates unbarred than they easily caught up with us, even on those paths which we opened up without their aid."
--A. A. Leroy Beaulieu, French publicist, 1842
"The Jew gave us the Outside and the Inside - our outlook and our inner life. We can hardly get up in the morning or cross the street without being Jewish. We dream Jewish dreams and hope Jewish hopes. Most of our best words, in fact - new, adventure, surprise, unique, individual, person, vocation, time, history, future, freedom, progress, spirit, faith, hope, justice - are the gifts of the Jews."
--Thomas Cahill, Irish Author
"One of the gifts of the Jewish culture to Christianity is that it has taught Christians to think like Jews, and any modern man who has not learned to think as though he were a Jew can hardly be said to have learned to think at all."
--William Rees-Mogg, former Editor-in-Chief for The Times of London and a member of the House of Lords
"It is certain that in certain parts of the world we can see a peculiar people, separated from the other peoples of the world and this is called the Jewish people.... This people is not only of remarkable antiquity but has also lasted for a singular long time... For whereas the people of Greece and Italy, of Sparta, Athens and Rome and others who came so much later have perished so long ago, these still exist, despite the efforts of so many powerful kings who have tried a hundred times to wipe them out, as their historians testify, and as can easily be judged by the natural order of things over such a long spell of years. They have always been preserved, however, and their preservation was foretold... My encounter with this people amazes me..."
--Blaise Pascal, French Mathematician
"The Jewish vision became the prototype for many similar grand designs for humanity, both divine and man made The Jews, therefore, stand at the center of the perennial attempt to give human life the dignity of a purpose."
--Paul Johnson, American Historian
"As long as the world lasts, all who want to make progress in righteousness will come to Israel for inspiration as to the people who had the sense for righteousness most glowing and strongest."
--Matthew Arnold, British poet and critic
"Indeed it is difficult for all other nations of the world to live in the presence of the Jews. It is irritating and most uncomfortable. The Jews embarrass the world as they have done things which are beyond the imaginable. They have become moral strangers since the day their forefather, Abraham, introduced the world to high ethical standards and to the fear of Heaven. They brought the world the Ten Commandments, which many nations prefer to defy. They violated the rules of history by staying alive, totally at odds with common sense and historical evidence. They outlived all their former enemies, including vast empires such as the Romans and the Greeks. They angered the world with their return to their homeland after 2000 years of exile and after the murder of six million of their brothers and sisters.
"They aggravated mankind by building, in the wink of an eye, a democratic State which others were not able to create in even hundreds of years. They built living monuments such as the duty to be holy and the privilege to serve one's fellow men.
"They had their hands in every human progressive endeavor, whether in science, medicine, psychology or any other discipline, while totally out of proportion to their actual numbers. They gave the world the Bible and even their "savior."
"Jews taught the world not to accept the world as it is, but to transform it, yet only a few nations wanted to listen. Moreover, the Jews introduced the world to one God, yet only a minority wanted to draw the moral consequences. So the nations of the world realize that they would have been lost without the Jews. And while their subconscious tries to remind them of how much of Western civilization is framed in terms of concepts first articulated by the Jews, they do anything to suppress it.
"They deny that Jews remind them of a higher purpose of life and the need to be honorable, and do anything to escape its consequences. It is simply too much to handle for them, too embarrassing to admit, and above all, too difficult to live by.
"So the nations of the world decided once again to go out of 'their' way in order to find a stick to hit the Jews. The goal: to prove that Jews are as immoral and guilty of massacre and genocide as some of they themselves are.
"All this in order to hide and justify their own failure to even protest when six million Jews were brought to the slaughterhouses of Auschwitz and Dachau; so as to wipe out the moral conscience of which the Jews remind them, and they found a stick.
"Nothing could be more gratifying for them than to find the Jews in a struggle with another people (who are completely terrorized by their own leaders) against whom the Jews, against their best wishes, have to defend themselves in order to survive. With great satisfaction, the world allows and initiates the rewriting of history so as to fuel the rage of yet another people against the Jews. This in spite of the fact that the nations understand very well that peace between the parties could have come a long time ago, if only the Jews would have had a fair chance.
"Instead, they happily jumped on the wagon of hate so as to justify their jealousy of the Jews and their incompetence to deal with their own moral issues. When Jews look at the bizarre play taking place in The Hague , they can only smile as this artificial game once more proves how the world paradoxically admits the Jews uniqueness. It is in their need to undermine the Jews that they actually raise them.
"The study of history of Europe during the past centuries teaches us one uniform lesson: That the nations which received and in any way dealt fairly and mercifully with the Jew have prospered; and that the nations that have tortured and oppressed them have written out their own curse."
--Olive Schreiner, South African novelist and social activist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 1:23 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:13 AM IamJoseph has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 101 of 168 (630707)
08-27-2011 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by IamJoseph
08-27-2011 1:48 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
Yes they do: we find that the names and events are aligned with relics and artifacts and specific verses. If the book of kings lists a war in king David's time, and we find the Tel Dan find shows a monolit 100 years after king David describing that war - it is proof of that 3,200 year writings; authorship is listed and can only be proven by its surrounding proofs. If we have the book of Exodus listing a war of the Hebrews with Egypt, and find a stone monolith dated 3,500 years old listing a war of Egypt with Israel - the authorship of the book is considered reliable. At least there are some hard copy proofs here and of a period almost twice as old as the NT.
Dont get me wrong, I agree with what you are saying in PRINCIPLE. They do not however prove authorship. it only proves that the writer had knowledge of such events, while composing that text.
One of the first proofs is to demonstrate that it is not completley unreliable. This you have done and can be done w/ the NT
Produce one single example.
The writers of the NT mention many officials such as Herod and Pilot. Josephus, and even roman historians reference names and events with regard to Christ, the brother of James, the crucifixtion and other contemporary events.
It only means the writers and historians were aware of these events. It means the writer is not unreliable
You avoided my point. Should we adopt and follow the oriental religions, due to the fac that they are older and can be corroborated and have had a devastating impact on humaity
Paul was also thrown out by the Nazerites - the earliest followers of Jesus. Paul never met Jesus and was a 4th generation secular Greek who is hardly a reasonable figure to refer to.
Try and stick to the point. Growth is an important point in Gods plan for man. If your only contention is that it did not impact humaity, then I would have to say you are on shaky ground
Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world."
-- Winston Churchill
One example should suffice
Wrong atleast according to the old Testament. At every place and every circumstance they were in opposition to Gods will and plans
Constanly in captivity and eventually dispersed. A simple reading of 1 and 2nd Kings will demonstrate this point
It seems that God does not agree with Mr Churchill
What is important to God is not as important to man. "I desire mercy rather than sacrifice"
I suppose you could replace the word sacrifice with survival and the sentence would have the same meaning
Your quoted fellas will play the political card, God will not
I personally would hold the oriental up to any surving race. But they dont get mentioned enough because they are not as associated with the ancient texts as are the Jews
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 1:48 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 2:29 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 103 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 2:47 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3752 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 102 of 168 (630709)
08-27-2011 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 2:13 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
The writers of the NT mention many officials such as Herod and Pilot. Josephus, and even roman historians reference names and events with regard to Christ, the brother of James, the crucifixtion and other contemporary events.
Mentioning figures like Herod, a Roman appointed ruler, without any cross-nation backing, or contemporary relics or artifacts of the NT figures, is hardly proof. It is open to gross retro doctoring.
Understand that I am not attacking Christianoty, but the reverse applies. The premise Judaism is nothing unless it aligns with the NT, and all else in the Hebrew is fulfilled away, is candy coated genocide of the worst form imaginable. It attempts to negate all of Israel's heritage, history, geography and belief. I cannot imagine a more evil doctrine, and you have to imagine this being done to Christianity!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:13 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:58 AM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3752 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 103 of 168 (630710)
08-27-2011 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 2:13 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
It seems that God does not agree with Mr Churchill
Correct. Churchill corrupted the Balfour and cut Israel asunder for 30 barrels of oil. Churchill is speaking with a forked tongue.
quote:
What is important to God is not as important to man.
False. "The Lord speaks in the language of the people'; 'He understandeth the nature of man'.
No subjects - no king.
quote:
"I desire mercy rather than sacrifice"
The law for sacrifice was given by God. Your pointing to mercy shows you are quite ignorant of the Hebrew bible: sacrifice was only allowed for accidental crimes, so mercy is not applicable here. It is hardly mercy when you boast how bad the Jews are and thus deserved all their woes. Better you admit the crimes of those you support and check their histories instead - there are none uglier.
What you also don't realise is animal sacrifice was rampant throughout the ancient world and was stemmed only by the Hebrew laws. By making one specific temple the only place for sacrifice, and limiting this to accidental and thanksgiving reasons, 99.9% of sacrifices became eliminated. This considered the nature and culture of ancient people and gave them the best means to rid of a human obsession from the dawn of time. In turn, human sacrifice was forbidden for the first time - in direct contradiction of the Gospel themes.
One day, Christianity and Islam will have to remove their theological racism and villifications, the only factor which can save these two religions; not for the benefit of the Jews, but this will be demanded by humanity itself. Making charges and conditions of salvation based on preferred beliefs only says they have no proof of their lies. Its racist too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:13 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 104 of 168 (630713)
08-27-2011 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by IamJoseph
08-27-2011 2:29 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
The premise Judaism is nothing unless it aligns with the NT, and all else in the Hebrew is fulfilled away, is candy coated genocide of the worst form imaginable. It attempts to negate all of Israel's heritage, history, geography and belief. I cannot imagine a more evil doctrine, and you have to imagine this being done to Christianity!
Interestingly enough it is God and your own text that describes the Jewish people, as a people, not christianity or history
God rejected them long before any Christian did. Was it Christians that placed them in repeated captivity. Was it Christians that forced thier disobedience?
Mentioning figures like Herod, a Roman appointed ruler, without any cross-nation backing, or contemporary relics or artifacts of the NT figures, is hardly proof. It is open to gross retro doctoring.
Of course this is not all I mentioned and you know it. The writings of the earliest Christians of the same time period, place the books at the time they claim and you know it.
What do you call the roman historians, that cross reference these events?
the earliest apostolic fathers, first century, nearly reproduce the entire NT. How did they do this, from imaginary documents. Much earlier than the fourth century wouldnt you agree
Most of these people did not know eachother directly
Those numerous writers had nothing to gain and were certainly not aware they were accomplishing some forgery, with persecution and death square in the face
Do you honestly believe the items you mentioned prove authorship and inspiration for the Old Test
They do prove he was reliable enough to read on
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 2:29 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by IamJoseph, posted 08-27-2011 4:22 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3752 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 105 of 168 (630718)
08-27-2011 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dawn Bertot
08-27-2011 2:58 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
Interestingly enough it is God and your own text that describes the Jewish people, as a people, not christianity or history
Right."Know for a surety your seed shall be in bondage." If you also apply some insight, this was said before the Jewish nation was born, to Abram, before he even had a seed. Obviously, one cannot sin before they are born, making the charge applicable to the burden of monotheism and incur the wrath of divine king nations. That is precisely what occured.
quote:
God rejected them long before any Christian did.
LOL. Jews happen to be the only nation in the middle-east which prevailed. Please show me the verse where it says what you post! My version says they will be returned via a small remnant. You cannot write your own versions and leave out all actual prophesies.
quote:
Was it Christians that placed them in repeated captivity. Was it Christians that forced thier disobedience?
Yes:
"We will never support the return of the Jews to their homeland because they rejected JC"
- Pope not so Pius at the helm of Europe's holocaust. Does it mean Christianity must be taken over by Muslims because they rejected Mohammed - or does your logic only apply to Jews?
quote:
The writings of the earliest Christians of the same time period, place the books at the time they claim and you know it.
No such proof exsts. The earliest imprint of the Gospels is the 4th century, well after the Roman war with the Jews. That is hardly prophesy!
quote:
What do you call the roman historians, that cross reference these events?
The Roman archives of Tacitus, Apion, etc are loaded with descriptions of minute events with the Jews in Judea. Not a word about a trial by Pilate. You can also see the notorious blood libels in pre-christian Roman archives - affirming only a retrospective version of prophesy!
quote:
the earliest apostolic fathers, first century, nearly reproduce the entire NT. How did they do this, from imaginary documents. Much earlier than the fourth century wouldnt you agree
Most of these people did not know eachother directly
These people do not exist. The Gospels never existed at this time. The notion of Gospels according to Mathew, affirms only someone else is writing it. We are not even told the author and it is subscribed to one without a second name. Have you seriously not wondered why we do not have a shred of Hebrew Gospels, or one of Greek of its time - even with so many alledged writers?
quote:
Those numerous writers had nothing to gain and were certainly not aware they were accomplishing some forgery, with persecution and death square in the face
Rome had great reason to cover its crimes- a holocaust occured in 70 CE. Its not even mentioned in the Gospels, a grotesque lie-by-omission.
quote:
Do you honestly believe the items you mentioned prove authorship and inspiration for the Old Test
They do prove he was reliable enough to read on
There is no scripture with equivalent validity.
Its time that Christians and Muslims ceased being 'subject to Jews' belief systems, knock out all the thrash about Jews and raise your own beliefs as able to stand on its own. Jews are a miniscule nation, 1000's of year older and have totally different beliefs than what is subscribed to them. It is for your own good: Mighty Rome was the greatest super power in history, bigger than Christianity and Islam combined, and Rome was challenged by the smallest nation - and Rome lost this battle. Otherwise you would have been worshipping Jupiter and Zeus today. The only vindicated, provable prophey the last 2000 years is in the Hebrew bible and the dead sea scrolls. I am on the side of Christianity - but not in the mode Christians mean - that points to more disaster ahead for humanity waiting to hapen, and its got nothing to do with Jews, but only between:
NO SALVATION BUT THROUGH ME.
And
ITS A BLESSING TO KILL THE INFIDELS.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 2:58 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by anglagard, posted 08-27-2011 2:56 PM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 111 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-27-2011 8:06 PM IamJoseph has replied

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