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Author Topic:   How do you share new disbelief with friends and family?
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 16 of 29 (629693)
08-19-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
08-18-2011 6:35 PM


Let the kids know, of course. If you teach them well they will make up their own minds, either way, as it should be.
I hope so! They were my inspiration for writing what I did in the first thread to begin with along with a bunch more that are more personal that I haven't shared.
Their godparents are uber-religious so in the worst case if something happened to me, they would not have my influence when they are mature enough to be thinking about these things. Religion personally contributed a significant amount of grief to my life so I would like them to at least know about the alternative and let them decide freely about their beliefs. My personal letters to them express that sentiment in much more detail.
That was all preciptated by some moments where I had to face some stark issues of my own mortality.
As for the rest of the family? I don't know what to say. If it were me I'm thinking I would not make some big splash announcement about it. If the topic comes up then fine. Say my piece like it was nothing new.
There are times I wish I could do something like that. That isn't my personality though. My biggest worry would be that it seems selfish to do that, making a moment all about me, no matter how I could construct it. Especially considering they will likely be shocked, and likely be unhappy about it.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2011 6:35 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 17 of 29 (629696)
08-19-2011 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jazzns
08-19-2011 10:24 AM


I am trying to find a way OUT of lying about my beliefs or how I want to raise my kids.
Well, I've told you the way out - piss off your entire family by rejecting their religious traditions.
There really isn't a third way, here; at least not for you. Whether or not your family reacts to your religious rejection with tolerance and understanding is based on their characteristics as individuals, not in the manner in which you announce your atheism. The fact of the matter is that even a polite "you know, I really just don't believe that there's any such thing as God" is considered unbearably rude by the religious. I said roughly the same thing to my own family a few years ago and it was the only time I'd ever seen my dad cry. Not even when his parents died.
It's not that your family (or mine) are bad people, it's that they're religious. And that does things to your mind. One of the things it does is infect you with all kinds of idiotic notions about the moral status of atheists. It's not their fault, but there's nothing you can do about it as long as they've agreed to open their minds to tenancy by ideas that have never had any firm grounding in empirical fact.
Well, the reason I brought it up is that I don't feel that it needs to be that black and white.
Well, no. Wrong. The reason you brought it up is that you don't want it to be that black and white. But if you had some actual reason to believe that there was some kind of path of reconciliation you could walk in this regard, wouldn't you already know about it, and not have to ask us?
Simply stating the problem in the form of a delimma doesn't solve it though.
Because there's no solution. That's what I'm trying to get across to you. Take it from someone whose done this. I thought I was prepared and the actual discussion about it was calm and respectful, happened on neutral territory, was basically refereed by my aunt, and there were no significant fireworks.
And then the next day my parents came back and told me that I had done one of the most hurtful things possible to them. And now we pretend like the whole thing never ever happened. There's just not any way to square this circle, Jazzns. It's like telling your parents you're a male prostitute or a gay porn actor or something. It's just not going to be consistent with what your family believes is permissible. There's no resolution to that, and the only way your family will be able to sit at the Thanksgiving table together is if everybody pretends like the conversation never happened, which means they'll still say grace over the dinner table (whether you want to start eating or not) and bug you about your kids going to church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jazzns, posted 08-19-2011 10:24 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 08-19-2011 11:15 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 18 of 29 (629699)
08-19-2011 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by hooah212002
08-19-2011 1:21 AM


Why is lack of belief in god(s) something that one needs to be ashamed of?
Its not that I am ashamed. I am in fact not ashamed at all. I would not even be ashamed to tell them. I would feel hurt FOR them though. I am afraid that THEY will be hurt because for them it will be a 180 turn around and according to their superstition, I seem to be hurting myself. But no, I am totally okay and comfortable with my choices so far.
Does a Born Again Christian swelter in fear?
Yes actually! Some seem to be quite fearfull and I have experienced great fear when I was a Christian BECAUSE of my faith.
No, theists shout it from the rooftops. They wear their beliefs like a badge of honor.
Well yea, they do that too. Its a mixed bag really.
Family should be there for you regardless of belief.
I have no doubt that they will be there for me. I am not loosing any family over this issue thankfully. (at least I don't think so) But their version of "being there for me" means being extraordinarily concerned with my eternal soul while also feeling pain and sadness. Imagine for a moment the feeling that your child or sibling is destined for some unimaginally terrible fate. You wouldn't be happy about it. It will also likely make them way more concerned about my kids...now that I think about it. Ugh...

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

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 Message 13 by hooah212002, posted 08-19-2011 1:21 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 19 of 29 (629703)
08-19-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
08-19-2011 10:41 AM


Well, I've told you the way out - piss off your entire family by rejecting their religious traditions.
Well yea. Look I understand that that is going to probably happen. I am not going to lie about it. Looking back at the discussion I may have danced around the issue a bit but when confronted I am not going to bald faced lie to people I care about.
There really isn't a third way, here; at least not for you. Whether or not your family reacts to your religious rejection with tolerance and understanding is based on their characteristics as individuals, not in the manner in which you announce your atheism. The fact of the matter is that even a polite "you know, I really just don't believe that there's any such thing as God" is considered unbearably rude by the religious. I said roughly the same thing to my own family a few years ago and it was the only time I'd ever seen my dad cry. Not even when his parents died.
So it is exactly these human, emotional issues that I simply know that I am not very good at navigating. I have invested a lot of time on myself, my own feelings, my own knowledge, etc but very little on expression and understanding others. When the stakes are potentially high then, I don't think its unreasonable to seek advice on the areas where you feel weak.
Well, no. Wrong. The reason you brought it up is that you don't want it to be that black and white. But if you had some actual reason to believe that there was some kind of path of reconciliation you could walk in this regard, wouldn't you already know about it, and not have to ask us?
How would I know about it already? That doesn't make any sense. I have already heard some good stories that have generated ideas about how to approach the situation. I am not looking for a cop-out. I understand that this isn't going to be painless.
Because there's no solution. That's what I'm trying to get across to you.
I only took issue with you seeming to say that the reason I wanted to do this was to articulate my reasons. I took that to mean that you thought I have some desperate desire to "come out" so to speak. If that is not what you meant then I appologize.
I think I am ultimatly looking for "how to do it" rather than an "if I should do it" kinds of ideas.
Take it from someone whose done this. I thought I was prepared and the actual discussion about it was calm and respectful, happened on neutral territory, was basically refereed by my aunt, and there were no significant fireworks.
And then the next day my parents came back and told me that I had done one of the most hurtful things possible to them. And now we pretend like the whole thing never ever happened. There's just not any way to square this circle, Jazzns. It's like telling your parents you're a male prostitute or a gay porn actor or something. It's just not going to be consistent with what your family believes is permissible. There's no resolution to that, and the only way your family will be able to sit at the Thanksgiving table together is if everybody pretends like the conversation never happened, which means they'll still say grace over the dinner table (whether you want to start eating or not) and bug you about your kids going to church.
So I have imagined that scenario, but it is still helpful to hear from others that my imagination isn't crazy.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2011 10:41 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2011 11:26 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 29 (629705)
08-19-2011 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jazzns
08-18-2011 1:02 PM


my 2 cents
Personally I dont believe in teaching your kids anything. Let them make up their own minds...in fact, were I to teach them anything, I would teach both sides of the issue. Intelligent people often decide differently...there is no intelligent agreement on faith and belief, nor all all ignorant people on only one side of the issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jazzns, posted 08-18-2011 1:02 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Jazzns, posted 08-19-2011 11:36 AM Phat has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 21 of 29 (629706)
08-19-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by bluescat48
08-19-2011 8:09 AM


My 3 siblings are , 1 Christian, 1 Deist & 1 Agnostic.
Even Deism is probably bad in these circles although perhaps "less bad". I don't have any problems with Deism, I just don't see the point. It would probably still be lying to claim to be a Deist but it is an interesting though at least.
I am the only Atheist. We get along fine since we don't go in to discussing 4 topics, Sex, Religion, War & Politics, what I call the 4 cornerstones of stupidity.
Well! Those topics are sometimes hard to avoid around our family gatherings. Oddly though I don't think we talk about OUR sex, religion, or politics all that much which is why I have been able to get by thus far. I oppose your label of stupidity though.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by bluescat48, posted 08-19-2011 8:09 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 29 (629709)
08-19-2011 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jazzns
08-19-2011 11:15 AM


How would I know about it already? That doesn't make any sense.
It makes perfect sense. If you have absolutely no information about a potential course of action that could magically bridge this chasm between you and your family, why would you have any belief that it exists?
If you knew about people who successfully squared this circle, you'd do what they did and not open this thread.
It's like - if you think there's a path somewhere, but you don't know where the path is and you don't know anybody who knows where the path is, why do you think the path actually exists? That's all I'm getting at. If you had some evidence-based reason to believe that it was possible to reconcile this bad dilemma, then by definition you'd have evidence about how the dilemma could be reconciled. It's the fact that you know absolutely nothing about it - hence this thread - that should indicate to you that maybe you know nothing because there's nothing to know.
I think I am ultimatly looking for "how to do it" rather than an "if I should do it" kinds of ideas.
I don't think your plan was to tell your family what stupid sheep they were, and how you're so much better and smarter than they are because you've left first-century superstitions in the dumpster where they belong - was it? If not then you already know everything there is to know about what you can do on your end to present your viewpoint in a polite, respectful, and authentic matter. Maybe you're not an expert in matters of human personality - who the hell is? - but I presume that by now you've internalized the deep wisdom of "don't be a dick."
Sorry to come off as brusque; I'm trying to present these ideas in a startling plainness to surprise you into a different perspective. (I don't recommend you try it with your family.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 08-19-2011 11:15 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Jazzns, posted 08-22-2011 9:55 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 23 of 29 (629710)
08-19-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
08-19-2011 11:21 AM


Re: my 2 cents
I want the kids to make up their own mind no matter what I say. But to believe for one second that they are incapable of being brain washed is what I consider to be irresponsible. It happened to me, and the only way I can know if they have the knowledge they need to make informed choices is if I give it to them.
The backup plan is currently for them to go into an environment where they will only likely get the knowledge they need by accident. The people I am talking about absolutly believe it should be a choice for children but only one choice is truly acceptable.
These are good people who in all other aspects I have the utmost trust. But they certainly are not going to engage in teaching nothing and letting the child "decide" for themselves.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 08-19-2011 11:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 08-21-2011 9:49 AM Jazzns has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 24 of 29 (629736)
08-19-2011 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jazzns
08-19-2011 11:24 AM


The reason I say stupidity is that they form the foundation of greed; lust; bigotry; emotional, physical and sexual abuse; enslavement and lack of civil & human rights.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 29 (629939)
08-21-2011 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jazzns
08-19-2011 11:36 AM


Re: my 2 cents
Jazzns writes:
I want the kids to make up their own mind no matter what I say. But to believe for one second that they are incapable of being brain washed is what I consider to be irresponsible. It happened to me, and the only way I can know if they have the knowledge they need to make informed choices is if I give it to them.
Do you believe that its the beliefs of organized religion that are directly harmful to thinking or is it the people themselves that brainwash an attitude?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jazzns, posted 08-19-2011 11:36 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 26 of 29 (629967)
08-21-2011 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jazzns
08-18-2011 1:02 PM


Jazzns, I wouldn't bring it up unless they brought it up. If and when they do, be as candid about it as possible but in a matter-of-fact, non-combative way. If they press you for answers, just give them reasons for the transitions.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jazzns, posted 08-18-2011 1:02 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Jazzns, posted 08-22-2011 10:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 27 of 29 (630076)
08-22-2011 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
08-21-2011 9:49 AM


Re: my 2 cents
I am not sure I fully understand your question.
My main concern for my children is that they have the opportunity to avoid pain that is avoidable through knowledge. This is especially true for pain that I experienced during my development.
I avoided the pain of poverty that my parents experienced by getting an education. I hope to pass that on to them.
For me, religion was unnecessarily painful and even if they don't end up in the same place as I do regarding faith, I believe they are entitled to the knowledge I have aquired. This is knowledge that the religious in my family does not have and does not want to have.
Regardless if you call it brainwashing or not, I know that in the case of my absence, only one side of the story will be told to my kids. "Teach the controversy" is not a virtue when it comes to salvation for those who would be there in my stead. So I am taking the time that I know I do have now to write to them anything that I would want to say if they were 18 and going off to college.
Obviously, I intend to be there along the way before that, not dumping them a bunch of crusty letters addressed to some personality that I never met. But as a stopgap, I hope they would serve well. Writing has also allowed me to organize my ideas better for myself.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 08-21-2011 9:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 28 of 29 (630079)
08-22-2011 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
08-19-2011 11:26 AM


I don't think your plan was to tell your family what stupid sheep they were, and how you're so much better and smarter than they are because you've left first-century superstitions in the dumpster where they belong - was it?
No. I get where your coming from. But what this thread has helped me think about so far are choices such as setting up a time to talk about it directly versus waiting for it to be brought up. That difference might actually matter when it comes to as least softening the fallout or at the very least making it less uncomfortable for me. For example, I don't think I would want it to be brought up over Christmas dinner in front of my entire family.
I am more curious about your story though. What made you decide to do it? Why did you have your aunt there? How has it been since then? I understand if those are too personal.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2011 11:26 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 29 of 29 (630080)
08-22-2011 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
08-21-2011 3:26 PM


Hey Hyro,
I am considering that. My biggest concerns are simply that the timing may be really bad in which case I might have to lie to spare the circumstances. Also, in the case of my kids, I might not be the one to break the news.
If I bring it up, I get to decide when and I know it will be from me.
Aren't you also a recent de-convert? If you are, do you mind me asking what your circumstances are regarding how you broke it to your family if you did?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-21-2011 3:26 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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