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Author Topic:   what's the harm of atheism?
subbie
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 16 of 35 (629447)
08-17-2011 6:24 PM


News update: someone arrested
Montreal police have announced as arrest in the "Mabus" case, although they're not saying who.
I suspect we won't be hearing from Dennis for a while. Here's hoping he gets the help he obviously needs.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 17 of 35 (629450)
08-17-2011 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by subbie
08-17-2011 6:24 PM


Re: News update: someone arrested
worst case scenario for him is he gets charged individually for all his threats which would put him behind bars for a lifetime. But hopefully the judge sees he is crazy and he gets institutionalized.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
Jesus was a dead jew on a stick nothing more

This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3977
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 18 of 35 (629458)
08-17-2011 11:03 PM


The grand ugly summary of the situation
This is apparently the definitive summary of the Mabus affair (found via various blogs):
Case Study: How a notorious spammer was brought down via Twitter | Skeptical Software Tools
As this thread started, there was actually hope on my part that we could have a vaguely sane conversation with Dennis. Too bad this didn't happen at least a few days earlier.
DM, in message 5, writes:
i'll tell you this much... everything is explained in the works of HERBERT MARCUSE....
Minnemooseus, in message 7, writes:
I just did a quick skim of the Herbert Marcuse article at Wikipedia. Seems to have been a pretty nice guy. He seems to have had at least some liking for the thoughts of Karl Marx.
So, what aspect of Marcuse's philosophy are you finding to be so interesting?
I'd love to know the answer to that question.
Adminnemooseus

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22623
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 19 of 35 (632933)
09-11-2011 10:58 AM


Tempting Fate
It's been a while - is he really gone?
--Percy

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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4233 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 20 of 35 (632936)
09-11-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Percy
09-11-2011 10:58 AM


Re: Tempting Fate
He is still undergoing a mental evaluation.
quote:
Markuze has been sent for a 30-day psychological evaluation at Montreal’s Pinel Institute and will appear in court again on Sept. 19.
Read more...

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 21 of 35 (632949)
09-11-2011 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by fearandloathing
09-11-2011 11:11 AM


Re: Tempting Fate
I hope he gets the help he needs.
It's tragic to watch a mind fold on itself like a malevolent protein.
I've joined many a razzing of grand and irrational religiosity, but the taunting of a genuine madman quickly sickens us all.
I don't intend the above as a comment on anyone here--I've probably poked Mabus myself, I truly can't recall. But I do find it dispiriting that a man can deteriorate so publicly and flamboyantly for so long, and only has a chance for help when faced with criminal proceedings. As a practical matter, communities wait so long at their own peril.
And I know it's difficult to intervene in a free society. It's just...sad. I hope he gets better.

"The brakes are good and the tires are fair."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by fearandloathing, posted 09-11-2011 11:11 AM fearandloathing has replied

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 Message 23 by Percy, posted 09-11-2011 1:49 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4233 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


(1)
Message 22 of 35 (632953)
09-11-2011 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Omnivorous
09-11-2011 12:53 PM


Re: Tempting Fate
I have poked fun at him numerous times.
But I have also felt about the same as you...
fearandloathing writes:
I hope he gets some help and meds, but if the legal system in Canada is the same as here then he will probably fall through the cracks and get a little jail time or maybe just probation. Jails here are full of crazy people who receive minimal mental health treatment. A lot of homeless people have mental problems, these same problems that keep them from being able to hold a job and lead a normal life also end up putting them in jail or prison, although it seems DM has held a job. It is truly sad that it took so long for police to act, and now that they have he may still not get the help he needs.
Message 3
The place he was sent is the only one of its type in Canada, not sure if that's good or bad though? He may still face prison time? Knowing the mental health care available to people like him in the USA, I am hoping Canada's system is better so he can get the help he needs.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

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 Message 21 by Omnivorous, posted 09-11-2011 12:53 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22623
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 23 of 35 (632956)
09-11-2011 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Omnivorous
09-11-2011 12:53 PM


Re: Tempting Fate
Omnivorous writes:
But I do find it dispiriting that a man can deteriorate so publicly and flamboyantly for so long, and only has a chance for help when faced with criminal proceedings. As a practical matter, communities wait so long at their own peril.
I recall one article where Markuze's mother, with whom he apparently lives, refused to believe that he could have threatened anyone. When a person's derangement only exhibits itself in secret or in isolation, such as online, family and community might have no hint of the problems.
Another issue: How does a community judge when a person who has committed no crime represents a sufficient danger as to justify preemptive action? How does one balance the community's right to be safe and secure in their daily life against an individual's right to privacy and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and just freedom in general.
I think it's rare for a deranged individual to give such obvious and overt signs that he's deranged that he can be preemptively treated against his will.
My own interpretation of Markuze's posts here, prior to his arrest, was that he was very strange but harmless. His posts seemed more weird than threatening. The portions alleged to contain threats seemed more like hyperbole than literal threats to me. Given the sheer volume of his posts, much greater than I ever imagined or that even seems possible, perhaps he has some sort of obsessive/compulsive disorder.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Omnivorous, posted 09-11-2011 12:53 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 24 of 35 (632960)
09-11-2011 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
09-11-2011 1:49 PM


Re: Tempting Fate
Percy writes:
I recall one article where Markuze's mother, with whom he apparently lives, refused to believe that he could have threatened anyone.
My poor mother, bless her sainted heart, believed equally untenable things about me.
Another issue: How does a community judge when a person who has committed no crime represents a sufficient danger as to justify preemptive action? How does one balance the community's right to be safe and secure in their daily life against an individual's right to privacy and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and just freedom in general.
Agreed. That was my point about the difficulty of handling these matters in a free society. But a psychiatric evaluation for repeated death threats hardly seems a civil liberty hazard.
And he had been committing crimes for years, the same crimes--threatening, etc.--for which he now faces charges. The article linked above referred to a petition signed by 5,000 people--5,000!--that led to the present investigation and psychiatric evaluation. However unclear the threshold for investigation and evaluation in a free society, I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be 5,000 complaints.
The clearly deranged fellow who shot Rep. Giffords had a similar track record of threatening behaviors in his own community, including behavior so menacingly bizarre in college classrooms that he was suspended. Yet no substantive intervention took place until he killed people.
I think it's rare for a deranged individual to give such obvious and overt signs that he's deranged that he can be preemptively treated against his will.
I respectfully disagree. Clear signs of derangement involving threatening are quite common: spend a day walking around any big city, and you will almost certainly encounter some. Moreover, the social responsibility here, as I see it, is to evaluate: cases that require preemptive treatment against the individual's will are indeed rare.
Society has declined to bear these financial and moral burdens--since, well, forever, really, but especially since Reagan cynically emptied federally-funded psychiatric wards in the 1980s in the name of personal liberties.
My impression of Markuze was the same of yours. As I said above, I'm neither pointing my analysis at anyone else nor exempting myself from it. I know of no individual failures of responsibility to point to concerning Markuze; the failures I see are social and institutional.
I suppose I'm just wishing the world were a better place, and thinking that, but for the grace of slightly better brain chemistry, there go I.

"The brakes are good and the tires are fair."

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 890 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 25 of 35 (634765)
09-23-2011 8:48 PM


Mabus gets help
"Dave Mabus" Diagnosed and In Treatment
On Thursday Stephane Giroux (a journalist covering the case) posted on Twitter that the evaluation is now complete, and Mabus has been referred for further treatment until his next court date on December 2. Giroux elaborated that the diagnosis was of a bipolar disorder exacerbated by alcohol and substance abuse. The further treatment from now until December is substance abuse rehabilitation.
This diagnosis of bipolar disorder does seem consistent with the behavior we’ve observed over the history of the case. Some in the skeptic community criticized the attempt to involve the police last month, pointing out that most forms of mental illness do not correlate with actual violence. However now that we know substance abuse is involved, it is worth noting this Oxford study which supports our decision to treat the threats as serious.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Omnivorous, posted 09-23-2011 9:05 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-23-2011 11:47 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 26 of 35 (634769)
09-23-2011 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by hooah212002
09-23-2011 8:48 PM


Re: Mabus gets help
Thanks for the link, hooah.
The remarks in the linked report point to the combination of substance abuse and mental illness as bearing out the decision to involve the police.
That seems a bit of unnecessary hindsight justification.
There is an established correlation between threats and later violence that more than justified the intervention.
I'm glad he's getting help. I hope we hear from a healthy Mabus someday.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by hooah212002, posted 09-23-2011 9:19 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 890 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 27 of 35 (634773)
09-23-2011 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Omnivorous
09-23-2011 9:05 PM


Re: Mabus gets help
I hope we hear from a healthy Mabus someday.
That actually made me wonder what the success rate of our mental health institutions is. How many people have been "cured" once deemed to have a mental disorder? Or do they just get put away? "out of sight, out of mind". Different topic of course (maybe not?) and I don't know enough about the subject to start it.....
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Omnivorous, posted 09-23-2011 9:05 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Omnivorous, posted 09-23-2011 11:01 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 28 of 35 (634782)
09-23-2011 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by hooah212002
09-23-2011 9:19 PM


Re: Mabus gets help
Asking for a little administrative tolerance here...
...enough to say there are effective treatments for bipolar disorder. Many folks with bipolar disorder lead satisfying, productive lives.
The greatest difficulty is the continuity of medication. The thrill of the manic phase is seductive, and some are unable to resist the allure. I've been told by a bipolar friend that the "normal" state is a dull gray compared to the electric life of the manic phase...before it destabilizes into incoherence and paranoia.
Some fully bipolar folks are tempted to thin out their meds in an attempt to maintain a hypomanic state, but they are rarely successful for long. Some have theorized that many great military and political leaders possessed hypomanic personalities.
In any event, bipolar disorder is more amenable to treatment than many mental illnesses, and Mabus has a better chance for a good life with treatment than without it. I wish him well.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 373 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 29 of 35 (634785)
09-23-2011 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by hooah212002
09-23-2011 8:48 PM


Re: Mabus gets help
I wonder how this works. Did he come up with new crazy while up and then post it repetitively while down?

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 373 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 30 of 35 (634787)
09-23-2011 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
09-11-2011 1:49 PM


Re: Tempting Fate
Another issue: How does a community judge when a person who has committed no crime represents a sufficient danger as to justify preemptive action? How does one balance the community's right to be safe and secure in their daily life against an individual's right to privacy and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and just freedom in general.
I think it's rare for a deranged individual to give such obvious and overt signs that he's deranged that he can be preemptively treated against his will.
My own interpretation of Markuze's posts here, prior to his arrest, was that he was very strange but harmless. His posts seemed more weird than threatening.
I reckon he crossed the line when he actually turned up at the same conference as PZM. Even if he wasn't dangerous he was doing his darndest to seem dangerous, which does in fact inflict harm in the form of fear. When the person who obsessively sends you gruesome death threats several times per day starts physically stalking you, it is difficult (and should be unnecessary) to say to oneself: yeah, but statistically he's still quite unlikely to kill me.

This message is a reply to:
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