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Author Topic:   what's the harm of atheism?
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 21 of 35 (632949)
09-11-2011 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by fearandloathing
09-11-2011 11:11 AM


Re: Tempting Fate
I hope he gets the help he needs.
It's tragic to watch a mind fold on itself like a malevolent protein.
I've joined many a razzing of grand and irrational religiosity, but the taunting of a genuine madman quickly sickens us all.
I don't intend the above as a comment on anyone here--I've probably poked Mabus myself, I truly can't recall. But I do find it dispiriting that a man can deteriorate so publicly and flamboyantly for so long, and only has a chance for help when faced with criminal proceedings. As a practical matter, communities wait so long at their own peril.
And I know it's difficult to intervene in a free society. It's just...sad. I hope he gets better.

"The brakes are good and the tires are fair."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by fearandloathing, posted 09-11-2011 11:11 AM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by fearandloathing, posted 09-11-2011 1:11 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 09-11-2011 1:49 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 24 of 35 (632960)
09-11-2011 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
09-11-2011 1:49 PM


Re: Tempting Fate
Percy writes:
I recall one article where Markuze's mother, with whom he apparently lives, refused to believe that he could have threatened anyone.
My poor mother, bless her sainted heart, believed equally untenable things about me.
Another issue: How does a community judge when a person who has committed no crime represents a sufficient danger as to justify preemptive action? How does one balance the community's right to be safe and secure in their daily life against an individual's right to privacy and freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and just freedom in general.
Agreed. That was my point about the difficulty of handling these matters in a free society. But a psychiatric evaluation for repeated death threats hardly seems a civil liberty hazard.
And he had been committing crimes for years, the same crimes--threatening, etc.--for which he now faces charges. The article linked above referred to a petition signed by 5,000 people--5,000!--that led to the present investigation and psychiatric evaluation. However unclear the threshold for investigation and evaluation in a free society, I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be 5,000 complaints.
The clearly deranged fellow who shot Rep. Giffords had a similar track record of threatening behaviors in his own community, including behavior so menacingly bizarre in college classrooms that he was suspended. Yet no substantive intervention took place until he killed people.
I think it's rare for a deranged individual to give such obvious and overt signs that he's deranged that he can be preemptively treated against his will.
I respectfully disagree. Clear signs of derangement involving threatening are quite common: spend a day walking around any big city, and you will almost certainly encounter some. Moreover, the social responsibility here, as I see it, is to evaluate: cases that require preemptive treatment against the individual's will are indeed rare.
Society has declined to bear these financial and moral burdens--since, well, forever, really, but especially since Reagan cynically emptied federally-funded psychiatric wards in the 1980s in the name of personal liberties.
My impression of Markuze was the same of yours. As I said above, I'm neither pointing my analysis at anyone else nor exempting myself from it. I know of no individual failures of responsibility to point to concerning Markuze; the failures I see are social and institutional.
I suppose I'm just wishing the world were a better place, and thinking that, but for the grace of slightly better brain chemistry, there go I.

"The brakes are good and the tires are fair."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 09-11-2011 1:49 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 26 of 35 (634769)
09-23-2011 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by hooah212002
09-23-2011 8:48 PM


Re: Mabus gets help
Thanks for the link, hooah.
The remarks in the linked report point to the combination of substance abuse and mental illness as bearing out the decision to involve the police.
That seems a bit of unnecessary hindsight justification.
There is an established correlation between threats and later violence that more than justified the intervention.
I'm glad he's getting help. I hope we hear from a healthy Mabus someday.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by hooah212002, posted 09-23-2011 8:48 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by hooah212002, posted 09-23-2011 9:19 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 28 of 35 (634782)
09-23-2011 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by hooah212002
09-23-2011 9:19 PM


Re: Mabus gets help
Asking for a little administrative tolerance here...
...enough to say there are effective treatments for bipolar disorder. Many folks with bipolar disorder lead satisfying, productive lives.
The greatest difficulty is the continuity of medication. The thrill of the manic phase is seductive, and some are unable to resist the allure. I've been told by a bipolar friend that the "normal" state is a dull gray compared to the electric life of the manic phase...before it destabilizes into incoherence and paranoia.
Some fully bipolar folks are tempted to thin out their meds in an attempt to maintain a hypomanic state, but they are rarely successful for long. Some have theorized that many great military and political leaders possessed hypomanic personalities.
In any event, bipolar disorder is more amenable to treatment than many mental illnesses, and Mabus has a better chance for a good life with treatment than without it. I wish him well.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by hooah212002, posted 09-23-2011 9:19 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by hooah212002, posted 09-24-2011 12:38 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 33 of 35 (634794)
09-24-2011 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by hooah212002
09-24-2011 12:38 AM


Re: Mabus gets help
hoah writes:
Having said that, and reflecting on bi-polar persons (I tried to forget about it), it seems to be a cop-out excuse for his behavior.
It's impossible to say for sure--bipolar disorders fall across a broad spectrum, from mildly depressed/mildly manic to suicidal depression/florid psychotic mania. But psychiatric institutions don't tend to hold people for mild to moderate disorders, due to budgetary pressures if nothing else. His biggest challenge will be upon release, since community outreach and outpatient support have suffered most in budget cuts.
I'd hazard a guess that in his manic phase he had little to no control over his actions, and when depressed he withdrew into total isolation. There would be brief periods in between spent contemplating the horror and shame of his nightmare roller coaster ride.
I guess I'm a softie. I can feel nothing for him but pity.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by hooah212002, posted 09-24-2011 12:38 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 34 of 35 (634795)
09-24-2011 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dr Adequate
09-24-2011 2:05 AM


Dr A writes:
Incidentally, how come Dennis Markuze, you know, the crazy guy who keeps turning up to issue actual frickin' death threats --- currently has a member rating of 5?
1. He never banned or suspended anyone.
2. He wasn't boring.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2011 2:05 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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