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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 451 of 479 (735089)
08-05-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Tangle
08-05-2014 12:56 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Tangle writes:
The museum chose an undeniable religious symbol. The rest is pure bullshit.
The bullshit is yours. The museum chose a symbol of hope. The people who had the hope happened to be Christians. Only a handful of atheists seem to see that as a constitutional problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 12:56 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 2:09 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 452 of 479 (735096)
08-05-2014 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by ringo
08-05-2014 1:06 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Ringo writes:
The bullshit is yours. The museum chose a symbol of hope. The people who had the hope happened to be Christians.
There'll be a few million people view that symbol in the next year, would you bet me anything at all that if you interviewed them and asked them what does the symbol represent that more would say hope than religion or Christianity or some such?
And for those three people who say 'hope' how many do you think would answer the follow up question 'why?' With something about salvation?
Only a handful of atheists seem to see that as a constitutional problem.
Really, was there a poll?
But like I said, I'd vote for it, I just wouldn't pretend that it's not a crucifix and holds no religious significance.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by ringo, posted 08-05-2014 1:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Jon, posted 08-05-2014 5:02 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 463 by ringo, posted 08-06-2014 11:53 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 453 of 479 (735104)
08-05-2014 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Tangle
08-05-2014 12:56 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
The museum chose an undeniable religious symbol. The rest is pure bullshit.
They told the world their reasons for including the cross.
If you want to continue to believe there are secret reasons they aren't telling everyone, reasons even the courts failed to find, reasons that even other atheists and non-Christians on this board have concluded do not exist; then that is your own delusional indulgence.
The rest of us will enjoy our reality.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 12:56 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 5:05 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 454 of 479 (735105)
08-05-2014 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Tangle
08-05-2014 2:09 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
But like I said, I'd vote for it, I just wouldn't pretend that it's not a crucifix and holds no religious significance.
Plenty of historical artifacts also hold religious significance.
Ultimately, though, their inclusion among lists of historical artifacts is not their religious meaning but their historical importance.
I suppose half the country could begin venerating the White House as a holy religious shrine; but that would not obligate the government to dissolve its interest in maintaining the building, which it doesat public expenseon political, historical, and practical grounds.
Whatever the personal reasons for recognizing the cross as important, it still has historical significance that justifies its inclusion into the museum regardless of what anyone thinksincluding the museum's employees.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 2:09 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 455 of 479 (735106)
08-05-2014 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by Jon
08-05-2014 4:48 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
The reality is an enormous, physical, tangible, photographical crucifix that the entire world can see, probably the most recognisable brand on the planet - the rest is rationalised hokum designed to get around an inconvenient law.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Jon, posted 08-05-2014 4:48 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by hooah212002, posted 08-05-2014 6:32 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 457 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 2:05 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 464 by Jon, posted 08-06-2014 4:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 456 of 479 (735109)
08-05-2014 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Tangle
08-05-2014 5:05 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
nvm
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 5:05 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 457 of 479 (735121)
08-06-2014 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by Tangle
08-05-2014 5:05 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
The reality is an enormous, physical, tangible, photographical crucifix that the entire world can see, probably the most recognisable brand on the planet - the rest is rationalised hokum designed to get around an inconvenient law.
And....? Why does this bother you?

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 5:05 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Tangle, posted 08-06-2014 2:39 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 458 of 479 (735122)
08-06-2014 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by Phat
08-06-2014 2:05 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Phat writes:
And....? Why does this bother you?
It doesn't bother me at all - like I say, I like the imagery - but the hypocrisy of the argument is very interesting to observe.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 2:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 9:10 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 459 of 479 (735140)
08-06-2014 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by Tangle
08-06-2014 2:39 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Ok I get your point. Perhaps the Christians rationalize the argument by claiming that any item---even a religious one---can have cultural significance and that in their mind, they simply see Christianity as a cultural influence in their pasts...they see no need for separation of church and state in matters of cultural significance. You point out that the article in question is plainly religious and that society is in denial of how religion influences current culture. Right?

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Tangle, posted 08-06-2014 2:39 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Tangle, posted 08-06-2014 9:20 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 460 of 479 (735142)
08-06-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Phat
08-06-2014 9:10 AM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Phat writes:
ou point out that the article in question is plainly religious and that society is in denial of how religion influences current culture. Right?
This is US culture specifically. No other state would agonise in this way about such an object - it's obviously iconic and it would have been picked up by any Christian based society as a powerful image. (Just to test the argument, ask yourself if that crucifix would have been used by a Muslim country.)
The problem the lawyers are having is that they want to use the icon regardless of their laws because it is so obviously an amazing thing - but have to torture logic simply because it's of deeply religious significance. It's not a conflict culture, it's purely a conflict of law.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 08-06-2014 9:10 AM Phat has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 461 of 479 (735157)
08-06-2014 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Tangle
08-04-2014 5:38 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
that's what they have to say
Whoa, hang on. Clarify this for me, what exactly are you saying here?
Are you saying that the museum officials are lying? That they are trying to skirt the Constitution and include a purely religious artifact into a secular museum and are committing perjury to the courts in order to save face?
because of your inconvenient constitution - it's making everyone torture words and feelings.
Well no, the Constitution is clear on this matter - there's no problem including this cross in a secular museum. And its not making anyone do anything. The American Atheists are the ones who are making everyone torture words and feelings.
Truth is it was picked for its religious significance and it has a religious significance now - a very obvious one. It looks like a duck....not much point calling it anything else but a duck except to avoid a legalistic difficulty.
False. There is a point in calling it something else: it IS something else too.
Nobody doubts its religious significance. Its just that more significance can be piled onto the religious significance. If fact, even secular significance can be piled on.
Once there's enough secular significance, then there is no problem with including it in a secular museum.
You do realize that there are plenty of religious artifacts in secular museums here in the U.S., right?
From Message 460:
The problem the lawyers are having is that they want to use the icon regardless of their laws because it is so obviously an amazing thing - but have to torture logic simply because it's of deeply religious significance. It's not a conflict culture, it's purely a conflict of law.
Not at all. The law is clear: Including this cross does not violate the constitution because the officials have an honest secular interest in including it with no evidence of any overt religious motivation.
There's no conflict whatsoever.
The problem all lies with the American Atheists. They're the ones with an unconstitutional position (the complete separation of religion from government). They, and their supporters, are the ones who have to torture logic to create this conflict. I mean, you've gone so far as to offer a conspiracy theory.
And look at the other crap they are making up now:
quote:
American Atheists President David Silverman used a return appearance on television’s most-watched cable news network to suggest that at least five members of his group have suffered a variety of ailments — chiefly dyspepsia — because their intestines can’t stomach the thought of a Christian symbol on display at the National September 11 Memorial and Museum in New York. Apparently, the stomach pains would go away, though, if the museum installed a plaque honoring all the atheists murdered in

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 08-04-2014 5:38 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by NoNukes, posted 08-06-2014 9:26 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 471 by Tangle, posted 08-07-2014 2:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 462 of 479 (735159)
08-06-2014 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by hooah212002
08-04-2014 7:03 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Find me non-Christians that identify with this cross and hold it as significant.
Okay: Rich Sheirer.
quote:
Men cut replicas of the cross out of ruined steel and carried them in their pockets. Even Rich Sheirer, then New York’s director of the Office of Emergency Management and a self-described short, round Jewish guy, appreciated the cross. Intellectually, you knew it’s just two pieces of steel, but you saw the impact it had on so many people, and you also knew it was more than steel, he says. Sheirer has a picture of it standing in the wreckage, as well as a small steel cutout given to him for a keepsake by the September 11th Families’ Association.
Father Brian says: We had Jews, Muslims, Buddhists. People who believed or didn’t believe. It was a matter of human solidarity. Whether you believed was irrelevant. We needed some type of fellowship down there, other than working.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by hooah212002, posted 08-04-2014 7:03 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by hooah212002, posted 08-06-2014 7:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 463 of 479 (735163)
08-06-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by Tangle
08-05-2014 2:09 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
Tangle writes:
There'll be a few million people view that symbol in the next year, would you bet me anything at all that if you interviewed them and asked them what does the symbol represent that more would say hope than religion or Christianity or some such?
I'd be willing to bet that a large number would associate it with something other than religion.
Tangle writes:
And for those three people who say 'hope' how many do you think would answer the follow up question 'why?' With something about salvation?
If they were paying attention to why it was included in the memorial, they'd say it was hope that more victims would be rescued. Salvation from the wreckage, yes. "Eternal salvation" not necessarily.
Tangle writes:
... I just wouldn't pretend that it's not a crucifix and holds no religious significance.
It's funny how you self-styled experts on religious symbols don't know the difference between a cross and a crucifix.
The fundies that I know make a huge distinction. A crucifix would have no more religious significance to them than a portrait of Satan.
In the broad sense, a cross may be a religious symbol but it means different things to different denominations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 2:09 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 464 of 479 (735181)
08-06-2014 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Tangle
08-05-2014 5:05 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
The reality is an enormous, physical, tangible, photographical crucifix that the entire world can see, probably the most recognisable brand on the planet - the rest is rationalised hokum designed to get around an inconvenient law.
It doesn't matter what the reasoning anyone gives or believes is. The fact that the item has a valid historical reason for being included in the museum is all that matters.
Rationalized hokum is still rational.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2014 5:05 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by Tangle, posted 08-06-2014 4:47 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 465 of 479 (735183)
08-06-2014 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Jon
08-06-2014 4:19 PM


Re: Atheists lose, cross stays
It's an alibi, I'll give you all that.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Jon, posted 08-06-2014 4:19 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
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