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Author Topic:   Higgs Boson
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1 of 81 (625565)
07-24-2011 1:46 AM



Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by NoNukes, posted 07-24-2011 10:48 AM GDR has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 81 (625599)
07-24-2011 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
07-24-2011 1:46 AM


Let's wait a bit...
From the cited article,
The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) has picked up tantalising fluctuations which might - or might not - be hints of the sought-after Higgs boson particle.
Higgs speculation is 'premature'
LHC 'has two years to find Higgs'

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 Message 1 by GDR, posted 07-24-2011 1:46 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Chuck77, posted 07-25-2011 4:15 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 81 (625686)
07-25-2011 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by NoNukes
07-24-2011 10:48 AM


Re: Let's wait a bit...
NoNukes writes:
Let's wait a bit...
Who are you asking to wait? Did you email the author of the article in question to wait? Or are you asking GDR not to post articles that are not to your liking?
NoNukes, are you trying to suppress information?
He simply posted an article, which im sure he read and seen your little quote already...Here's a thought, if you have nothing to sayt about the article in question, dont say anything.
But thanks for quoting the only part of it you like and not mentioning the actual premise of the article, which is optimism.
I wonder what you say when Scientists find " 70 million" year old dino fossils? HMMMM, I bet it's not...duuuur, ummm, maybe we should....WAIT?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by NoNukes, posted 07-24-2011 10:48 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Panda, posted 07-25-2011 5:21 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 07-25-2011 9:35 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 4 of 81 (625692)
07-25-2011 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chuck77
07-25-2011 4:15 AM


Re: Let's wait a bit...
Chuck77 writes:
But thanks for quoting the only part of it you like and not mentioning the actual premise of the article, which is optimism.
If you had done more than just read NoNukes subtitle (which is ironically the only part you quoted), then your questions would have been answered.
Maybe next time you should just wait a bit before replying.
TBH: I think you are losing it.
Your posts are becoming more and more 'raging'.
Perhaps you should take a nice break - lean back - and relax.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Chuck77, posted 07-25-2011 4:15 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 5 of 81 (625716)
07-25-2011 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chuck77
07-25-2011 4:15 AM


Re: Let's wait a bit...
the actual premise of the article, which is optimism.
Optimism, indeed down right thrilling is the word, regardless of the future end result.
The LHC data is narrowing the range where the Higgs may be. But these results are also consistent with what would be expected if the Higgs does not exist.
We are optimistic, actually quite giddy, that very soon now we will find the beast or find that the thing does not exist at all (at least not in the ranges the Standard Model expects). Either way the impact on our theories in physics will be staggering and that is the thrilling part.

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 Message 3 by Chuck77, posted 07-25-2011 4:15 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by GDR, posted 07-25-2011 1:58 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 7 by Taq, posted 07-25-2011 3:44 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 6 of 81 (625756)
07-25-2011 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
07-25-2011 9:35 AM


Re: Let's wait a bit...
Right off topic but I just want to add a word of thanks to those that are actually educated and have experience in this field. I'm able to understand enough of what you guys write, ( a long way from all of it) that I am getting a free education, and as a bonus there are no exams.

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 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 07-25-2011 9:35 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 7 of 81 (625766)
07-25-2011 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
07-25-2011 9:35 AM


Re: Let's wait a bit...
We are optimistic, actually quite giddy, that very soon now we will find the beast or find that the thing does not exist at all (at least not in the ranges the Standard Model expects). Either way the impact on our theories in physics will be staggering and that is the thrilling part.
This is the part that many outside of science do not seem to understand. Scientists are sometimes more excited with being wrong than with being right. If the Higgs is not there it is just as exciting as finding the Higgs, perhaps even more exciting.

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 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 07-25-2011 9:35 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by cavediver, posted 07-25-2011 4:21 PM Taq has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 8 of 81 (625770)
07-25-2011 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taq
07-25-2011 3:44 PM


Re: Let's wait a bit...
If the Higgs is not there it is just as exciting as finding the Higgs, perhaps even more exciting.
It is easy to say it is more exciting not to find the Higgs, but the truth of the matter is that it has been so damn long since we found something concrete in particle physics, that everyone is desperate for it even at the expense of the possibility of having to start over on the Higgs sector of the Standard Model. The awesome days of the discovery of the W+/- and Z0 are so long ago, I'm not even sure they happened Their discovery was a major part of my early life in pre-academia.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

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 Message 7 by Taq, posted 07-25-2011 3:44 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Taq, posted 07-25-2011 5:23 PM cavediver has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 9 of 81 (625783)
07-25-2011 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by cavediver
07-25-2011 4:21 PM


Re: Let's wait a bit...
It is easy to say it is more exciting not to find the Higgs, but the truth of the matter is that it has been so damn long since we found something concrete in particle physics, that everyone is desperate for it even at the expense of the possibility of having to start over on the Higgs sector of the Standard Model.
I can understand that perspective. However, if there is concrete evidence that the Higgs does not exist it does make gravity/mass a wide open field. That hasn't happened in a while either, has it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by cavediver, posted 07-25-2011 4:21 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by cavediver, posted 07-25-2011 6:02 PM Taq has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 10 of 81 (625794)
07-25-2011 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taq
07-25-2011 5:23 PM


Re: Let's wait a bit...
However, if there is concrete evidence that the Higgs does not exist it does make gravity/mass a wide open field.
Not gravity - it is a common misconception that the Higgs has anything to do with the vast majority of gravitational mass. The Higgs is what gives rise to the non-zero rest-masses of the various particles. But rest-mass is an almost negligible contribution to the total mass of gravitating objects.
Yes, the origin of the non-zero rest masses becomes open again if the Higgs mechanism is not responsible. But it will almost certainly be something similar, if not specifically the Higgs then some equiavlent or condensate (possibly from some new phsyics, which is why it would be exciting); there are too many constraints from the physics we do know for it to be a completely open question.
Also, finding the Higgs is no barrier to investigating new physics. On the contrary, the Stanard Model with Higgs is still the most bizarre hodge-podge and is a blatent sign that it is merely an effective theory of some deeper physics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Taq, posted 07-25-2011 5:23 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Taq, posted 07-25-2011 6:10 PM cavediver has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 11 of 81 (625797)
07-25-2011 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by cavediver
07-25-2011 6:02 PM


Re: Let's wait a bit...
Yes, the origin of the non-zero rest masses becomes open again if the Higgs mechanism is not responsible. But it will almost certainly be something similar, if not specifically the Higgs then some equiavlent or condensate (possibly from some new phsyics, which is why it would be exciting); there are too many constraints from the physics we do know for it to be a completely open question.
Good point. Would it be fair to say that mass is the result of a particle and its accompanying field even if it isn't the Higg's particle/field.
Also, finding the Higgs is no barrier to investigating new physics. On the contrary, the Stanard Model with Higgs is still the most bizarre hodge-podge and is a blatent sign that it is merely an effective theory of some deeper physics.
I can completely agree with that. That was the distinct impression that Weinberg (speaking of the electroweak force) made on me when I read "Dreams of a Final Theory".

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Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 12 of 81 (666507)
06-28-2012 8:06 AM


Rumours
Hearing a rumour that both independent experiments are now at 4 standard deviations. Together it may mean that they are now at the magic 5 sigma. Any thoughts, gossip etc?

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Son Goku, posted 06-28-2012 8:39 AM Trixie has replied
 Message 18 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-29-2012 4:13 AM Trixie has not replied
 Message 32 by foreveryoung, posted 07-10-2012 10:23 PM Trixie has not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 81 (666509)
06-28-2012 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Trixie
06-28-2012 8:06 AM


Re: Rumours
Okay, gossip in the physics community (you heard it here first on EVC!), the Higgs has probably been found. CERN is going to make an announcement on July 4th.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Trixie, posted 06-28-2012 8:06 AM Trixie has replied

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 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 06-28-2012 6:00 PM Son Goku has not replied
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 06-29-2012 7:41 AM Son Goku has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 14 of 81 (666572)
06-28-2012 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Son Goku
06-28-2012 8:39 AM


Re: Rumours
Yippeeee! now we can rest easy that stuff really is stuff.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Son Goku, posted 06-28-2012 8:39 AM Son Goku has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3705 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 15 of 81 (666577)
06-28-2012 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Son Goku
06-28-2012 8:39 AM


Re: Rumours
I find it all rather exciting. Son, can you explain the two possibilities for what the Higgs may be like. Apparently there is one that's just a sort of dead end and the other which opens up all sorts of possibilities. I can't explain it any better since this really is beyond me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Son Goku, posted 06-28-2012 8:39 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
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