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Author Topic:   Information Theory and Intelligent Design.
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 76 of 102 (385488)
02-15-2007 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
02-15-2007 7:45 PM


Re: waste of time...
Don't get the wrong idea Razd... I am not seeking your forgiveness or pity. Lay it on me brother... Let the beatings begin. I can handle it now. It just took a long time to learn this whole longsuffering thing. It was hard to grasp even as a disciple.
Spit, kick, mock, impune, redicule, banish, condemn, lampoon, scorn, hate, laugh, scream, and destroy.
I can't do it anymore... I leave that to you...
You win! Eat drink and be merry...
Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2007 7:45 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 77 of 102 (385490)
02-15-2007 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by kuresu
02-15-2007 7:49 PM


Re: waste of time...
Ok... So what I am hearing, is that I need to conform to reality (lose my life, so that I may find real life)... That I am wrong and that you are right (He who is not with me, is against me).
You guys sound like someone I know... but you don't believe in Him.
I see no reason to continue this mock trial. I was guilty before the trial began, you only offer forgiveness if I repent.
Again, it sounds familliar....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by kuresu, posted 02-15-2007 7:49 PM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by anastasia, posted 02-15-2007 8:24 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 78 of 102 (385494)
02-15-2007 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
02-15-2007 7:45 PM


Condemnation of truth.
"In every guilty man, there is some innocence. This makes every absolute condemnation revolting." Albert Camus
Is Mr. Camus absolutely condemning the concept of 'absolute condemnation'?
He is! And he proves that justice must be absolute by imperitive and displays the irrationality that motivates a crowd to choose ignorance over reason when given a clear option. Such a choice is the lesser of the two threats to the will of the crowd who chooses to live their own way, absolutely.
Matthew 27: 21 "Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor. "Barabbas," they answered. 22 "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked. They all answered, "Crucify him!" 23 "Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!" 24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"
Such a scene is absolutism, condemning absolutism. It is mankind killing the very thing that is the essence of his humanity.
Is that Socratic enough for you guys?
Anyone got any hemlock?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2007 7:45 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by DrJones*, posted 02-15-2007 8:05 PM Rob has replied
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2007 7:10 PM Rob has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 79 of 102 (385499)
02-15-2007 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Rob
02-15-2007 8:00 PM


Re: Condemnation of truth.
blah blah blah
what does any of this have to do with the topic?

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 8:00 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 8:32 PM DrJones* has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 80 of 102 (385501)
02-15-2007 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by iceage
02-15-2007 1:24 AM


Re: Massless or Baseless
Iceage writes:
There are others, but these are the simplest and suffice to counter his point. Furthermore while these properties maybe effected by "intelligent agents" they are not dependent on "intelligent agents".
I am not a scientist by any means, but if you gave up the example of the two discs, and used instead, two corn snakes or such animal of different coloration, is it correct to say; the mass is the same (can be) and that while there is a difference in information, this is obviously not dependent on intelligent design? Or in other words, even if a creator allowed for these variants in information, they are easily explainable via natural means regardless of any 'agent'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by iceage, posted 02-15-2007 1:24 AM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2007 8:24 PM anastasia has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 81 of 102 (385505)
02-15-2007 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by anastasia
02-15-2007 8:13 PM


Re: Massless or Baseless
It's a matter of logic, not science.
If all{A} = all{B} then all-not{A} = all-not{B}
If all{A} = some{B} then all-not{A} ≠ all-not{B} as some {B} already = not{A}
And you cannot derive which parts are {B} and which are not{B}.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by anastasia, posted 02-15-2007 8:13 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by anastasia, posted 02-15-2007 8:34 PM RAZD has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 82 of 102 (385507)
02-15-2007 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Rob
02-15-2007 7:53 PM


Re: waste of time...
Rob writes:
I see no reason to continue this mock trial. I was guilty before the trial began, you only offer forgiveness if I repent.
How about a normal, honest post in a thread which you can handle, instead of the pre-fab material you use consistantly to cover every topic?
I am not trying to be rude, but it is obvious even to fellow christians that you are repetitve, egotistical, off topic, etc. when you could very easily contribute something of yourself as every other christian here is capable of. It is never altogether easy, but it it is definitely possible to hold your views and not be banned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 7:53 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 8:36 PM anastasia has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 83 of 102 (385510)
02-15-2007 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by DrJones*
02-15-2007 8:05 PM


Re: Condemnation of truth.
It's easy to be a cynic when everything is over your head.
Calculus means nothing to my five year old either. It's utterly irrelevant to playing with hotwheels. I'm sure you have other toys to amuse you...
Don't let me stop you... live it up while there's still time!
My point, was that all denunciation implies a moral doctrine. All moralizing and condemnation is accusatory of violating what is right.
You moralize against moralizing. Suicide of thought...
Don't moralize about anything and you will be happy. Don't let other people's sins ruin your life. Let them do their thing.
But thank you DrJones. Your genius is always refreshing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by DrJones*, posted 02-15-2007 8:05 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by DrJones*, posted 02-15-2007 8:56 PM Rob has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 84 of 102 (385511)
02-15-2007 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by RAZD
02-15-2007 8:24 PM


Re: Massless or Baseless
RAZD writes:
It's a matter of logic, not science.
If all{A} = all{B} then all-not{A} = all-not{B}
If all{A} = some{B} then all-not{A} ≠ all-not{B} as some {B} already = not{A}
And you cannot derive which parts are {B} and which are not{B}.
Not from the equation, no. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but if all A=some B, then B is less than A, and then, a corn snake in its variety is missing some information that 'corsnake' in general has? Just asking, because in breeding of animals, that is often how it works, take zebra finches. The missing information is not discernible except through color, but the finch is still a whole finch.
Anyway, this is beyond my abilities, or my expectations. Just thought it might serve the point better to use an object which has NOT obviously had an intelligent agent behind its design, as would a man-made disc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2007 8:24 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2007 8:40 PM anastasia has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 85 of 102 (385512)
02-15-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by anastasia
02-15-2007 8:24 PM


Re: waste of time...
My problem is that I do not yet take the advice i just gave to our dear DrJones.
I am trying to recruit the unrepentant. I have to let them go you know?
But thanks for your honest rebuke A.
Long way to go for me...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by anastasia, posted 02-15-2007 8:24 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by anastasia, posted 02-15-2007 9:07 PM Rob has replied
 Message 92 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-16-2007 2:17 AM Rob has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 86 of 102 (385513)
02-15-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by anastasia
02-15-2007 8:34 PM


Re: Massless or Baseless
but if all A=some B, then B is less than A,
No, the other way around all{A} fits inside but does not cover all{B}, so some{B} is outside {A} and is not{A}.
Just asking, because in breeding of animals, that is often how it works, take zebra finches. The missing information is not discernible except through color, but the finch is still a whole finch.
But what you can't tell is whether there is missing information that would have produced the color, or added information that blocks the color from being expressed or that changes the colors expressed.
So you have not{A} - no color - but you don't know if you have {B} or not{B}.
{abe} you also have the issue of recessive and dominant genes, so you could have recessive color that will show up again in later generations. In this case the "information" is neither lost nor gained.{/abe}
Edited by RAZD, : [abe]

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by anastasia, posted 02-15-2007 8:34 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by anastasia, posted 02-15-2007 8:59 PM RAZD has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 87 of 102 (385516)
02-15-2007 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Rob
02-15-2007 8:32 PM


Re: Condemnation of truth.
My point, was that all denunciation implies a moral doctrine
What does that have to do with the topic?

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 8:32 PM Rob has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 88 of 102 (385517)
02-15-2007 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by RAZD
02-15-2007 8:40 PM


Re: Massless or Baseless
RAZD writes:
{abe} you also have the issue of recessive and dominant genes, so you could have recessive color that will show up again in later generations. In this case the "information" is neither lost nor gained.{/abe}
Yes, good point. Loss of color seems to indicate loss of information, but it certainly may not. The 'purest' breeding is when recessive genes are ousted to the best of an intelligent agent's ability, but often coincide with loss of functionality in the animal, again giving the appearance of loss of information. In that case, the 'intelligence' of any designer in designing a functional creature seems obvious, but this does not exclude the process of natural selection. We, as agents in design, have 'unnaturally' selected for the survival of the animal.
Of course, dominant and recessive genes do not have to do with the color of a man-made disc, and it seemed more to the point to question 'intelligence' in the field of purely natural phenomena.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by RAZD, posted 02-15-2007 8:40 PM RAZD has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 89 of 102 (385523)
02-15-2007 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Rob
02-15-2007 8:36 PM


Re: waste of time...
Rob writes:
My problem is that I do not yet take the advice i just gave to our dear DrJones.
I am trying to recruit the unrepentant. I have to let them go you know?
So, take it. Turn over a new leaf right now. Post somewhere new, using entirely your own words, and wing it. If not, you are only selling yourself and your God short.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 8:36 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Rob, posted 02-15-2007 10:03 PM anastasia has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 90 of 102 (385537)
02-15-2007 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by anastasia
02-15-2007 9:07 PM


Re: waste of time...
A:
So, take it. Turn over a new leaf right now. Post somewhere new, using entirely your own words, and wing it. If not, you are only selling yourself and your God short.
The first sentance of your advice is valid. I bow to it respectfully.
The second is incorrect. 'In the beginning was the Word'. And God puts those words in our mouths. If He does not, then the last half is also true.
They do not respect the Word. The truth is chaff to them. Straw is more real and as useless against them. They laugh at swords and arrows.
But if you use your own words, they have won as well. It is brick instead of stone. I do not mean the words (and neither does scripture), I mean the ideas. Contradiction vs Non. 'A kingdom divided cannot stand'.
I know you don't take it so far... It's ok.
Godspeed...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by anastasia, posted 02-15-2007 9:07 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by kuresu, posted 02-15-2007 10:46 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 93 by RickJB, posted 02-16-2007 3:43 AM Rob has not replied
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 Message 96 by anastasia, posted 02-16-2007 8:20 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 97 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-17-2007 12:28 AM Rob has not replied

  
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