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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 151 of 192 (626303)
07-28-2011 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by zi ko
07-28-2011 10:57 AM


Re: Lederberg experiment
What does any of that have to do with empathy?
There is no cohesion in your ideas, at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by zi ko, posted 07-28-2011 10:57 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by zi ko, posted 07-29-2011 11:30 AM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 152 of 192 (626304)
07-28-2011 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by shadow71
07-27-2011 8:42 AM


Re: I need clear answers
Thanks Shadow71.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by shadow71, posted 07-27-2011 8:42 AM shadow71 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9975
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 153 of 192 (626338)
07-28-2011 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by zi ko
07-28-2011 1:22 AM


Re: I need clear answers
Maby it would be useful if there is first a definition about your argumentation will be just a debate between a creationist and a naturalist.
I will argue that the mechanisms described in the paper are blind to the specific needs of the bacteria in a given environment. I will argue that the mutations are random with respect to fitness and consistent with unguided mutation.
It is also useful to define what is "random".
Sure. In this case, I will argue that the mutations produced by the mechanism in Wright's paper will produce a wide range of mutations, from detrimental to beneficial. The mechanism is incapable of discerning between what is helpful and what is not which makes it random with respect to fitness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by zi ko, posted 07-28-2011 1:22 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by zi ko, posted 07-29-2011 10:55 AM Taq has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 154 of 192 (626345)
07-28-2011 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by zi ko
07-28-2011 1:22 AM


Brazen effrontery
Wow Zi Ko! It is hard to believe your cheek in insisting others need to define terms when you have persistently failed to offer a coherent definition of any of the terms you have used to describe your hypothesis.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by zi ko, posted 07-28-2011 1:22 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by zi ko, posted 07-29-2011 10:26 AM Wounded King has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 155 of 192 (626418)
07-29-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Wounded King
07-28-2011 3:26 PM


Re:
Wow Zi Ko! It is hard to believe your cheek in insisting others need to define terms when you have persistently failed to offer a coherent definition of any of the terms you have used to describe your hypothesis.
I suppose you mean the definition of information. I think i had given it.
information: anything it comes to the senses from outer and inner world. Lack of food, chemicals, light,sound, sense of danger,inability, ect. It is the same, i suppose, meaning you give in the word in message 133. The same as Shapiro gives it in his work " the 21st evolution theory" based on computational binary system.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Wounded King, posted 07-28-2011 3:26 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Wounded King, posted 07-29-2011 10:50 AM zi ko has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 156 of 192 (626422)
07-29-2011 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by zi ko
07-29-2011 10:26 AM


Re: Re:
anything it comes to the senses from outer and inner world. Lack of food, chemicals, light,sound, sense of danger,inability
Like I said, incoherent. How can I quantify this information? In what way are any of the things you described based on a 'computational binary system'?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by zi ko, posted 07-29-2011 10:26 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by zi ko, posted 07-29-2011 11:18 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 157 of 192 (626426)
07-29-2011 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Taq
07-28-2011 2:22 PM


Re: I need clear answers
You didn't say if light s ghange in direction passing through crystal if it is random or not . I think it isn't random as regards crystal.So bacround mutations and more so those enhanced in rate are not random as regards to fitness ,or more appropriatly i think ,as regards to life. These mutations happen because they are useful to life. They are directed by life to serve life. This a FACT.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Taq, posted 07-28-2011 2:22 PM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 158 of 192 (626428)
07-29-2011 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Wounded King
07-29-2011 10:50 AM


Definition of "information"
How do you define "information" in message 133?
I don't think your talk is incoherent.
WIKIPEDIA
"Information in its most restricted technical sense is an ordered sequence of symbols that record or transmit a message. It can be recorded as signs, or conveyed as signals by waves. Information is any kind of event that affects the state of a dynamic system."
"As sensory inputOften information is viewed as a type of input to an organism or system. Inputs are of two kinds. Some inputs are important to the function of the organism (for example, food) or system (energy) by themselves. In his book Sensory Ecology, Dusenbery called these causal inputs. Other inputs (information) are important only because they are associated with causal inputs and can be used to predict the occurrence of a causal input at a later time (and perhaps another place). Some information is important because of association with other information but eventually there must be a connection to a causal input. In practice, information is usually carried by weak stimuli that must be detected by specialized sensory systems and amplified by energy inputs before they can be functional to the organism or system. For example, light is often a causal input to plants but provides information to animals. The colored light reflected from a flower is too weak to do much photosynthetic work but the visual system of the bee detects it and the bee's nervous system uses the information to guide the bee to the flower, where the bee often finds nectar or pollen, which are causal inputs, serving a nutritional function."

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

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 Message 156 by Wounded King, posted 07-29-2011 10:50 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 159 of 192 (626432)
07-29-2011 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Larni
07-28-2011 11:01 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
Empathy is a type of information and a special one, as it is always fortified with emotion under stress, it actsts over long periods ( maybe thousands or millions of years) over the same subject and so it is the most propable of all types of information to act on genome.(http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com)

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Larni, posted 07-28-2011 11:01 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Taq, posted 07-29-2011 12:27 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 161 by Larni, posted 07-29-2011 12:56 PM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9975
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 160 of 192 (626452)
07-29-2011 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by zi ko
07-29-2011 11:30 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
Empathy is a type of information and a special one, as it is always fortified with emotion under stress, it actsts over long periods ( maybe thousands or millions of years) over the same subject and so it is the most propable of all types of information to act on genome
What subject is thousands to millions of years old? Last I checked, average human life span was around 80 and the oldest person was like 120. Are we talking about Methuselah or something?
Also, you have yet to show how empathy acts on the genome in an meaningful way where it concerns evolution. You claim it does, and yet you can't show how it does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by zi ko, posted 07-29-2011 11:30 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by zi ko, posted 07-30-2011 12:02 AM Taq has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 161 of 192 (626460)
07-29-2011 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by zi ko
07-29-2011 11:30 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
No no no no! You may want to believe all of that but you are wrong.
Or stupid. Either one is accurate, here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by zi ko, posted 07-29-2011 11:30 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by zi ko, posted 07-30-2011 12:11 AM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 162 of 192 (626560)
07-30-2011 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Taq
07-29-2011 12:27 PM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
What subject is thousands to millions of years old? Last I checked, average human life span was around 80 and the oldest person was like 120. Are we talking about Methuselah or something?
You hahave misunderstood me. Same "subject" i mean same theme, senario.When prey's speed is less than that of predator's, empathy stress of wathing simblings and other members of species, triggers the mechanism of appropriate changes in genome and phenotype. This senario is repeated thousand times over thousand years. That is why empathy is a special type of information process.
Also, you have yet to show how empathy acts on the genome in an meaningful way where it concerns evolution. You claim it does, and yet you can't show how it does.
Empathy as atype of information has the same mechanism on affecting genome as other information staff does, as Shapiro has shown.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Taq, posted 07-29-2011 12:27 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Taq, posted 08-01-2011 11:16 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 163 of 192 (626564)
07-30-2011 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Larni
07-29-2011 12:56 PM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
No no no no! You may want to believe all of that but you are wrong.
Or stupid. Either one is accurate, here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your BELIEF in dogmas is admirable. But isn't time to move on a bit further and start to question things?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Larni, posted 07-29-2011 12:56 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Panda, posted 07-30-2011 12:25 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 165 by Larni, posted 07-30-2011 5:29 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 164 of 192 (626565)
07-30-2011 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by zi ko
07-30-2011 12:11 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
zi ko writes:
Your BELIEF in dogmas is admirable. But isn't time to move on a bit further and start to question things?
We should also be investigating loneliness.
Loneliness as a type of information has the same mechanism on affecting genome as other information staff does, as Shapiro has shown.
We must also remember to investigate beauty.
Beauty as a type of information has the same mechanism on affecting genome as other information staff does, as Shapiro has shown.
Also there is concentration to be investigated.
Concentration as a type of information has the same mechanism on affecting genome as other information staff does, as Shapiro has shown.
There is an infinite list of unevidenced things to investigate - if only we would just open our eyes...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by zi ko, posted 07-30-2011 12:11 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by zi ko, posted 07-30-2011 9:41 AM Panda has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 165 of 192 (626579)
07-30-2011 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by zi ko
07-30-2011 12:11 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
It would be fine if you were going to do any damned research into your ideas but you seem to have no intention of doing that.
How do you think that attitude looks to people who have actually taken the time to do proper research.
Have you done a lit review? Or are you basing your idea on one piece of research t you are misinterpreting? Do you know how long a lit review can take?
What search terms did you use? What data bases? Can you see where this is going?
You are an armchair philosopher and that ain't going to fly here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by zi ko, posted 07-30-2011 12:11 AM zi ko has not replied

  
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