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Author Topic:   Information's role in evolution.Should we put it more in the picture?
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 1 of 192 (620869)
06-21-2011 12:47 PM


In humans knowledge represents the most significant aspect of life. In other higher organisms and in lower ones it plays important role also. .
Plants.
Here we haven’t neural system. But plants have chemicals, hormones and pollen as ways of internal and external communication system.
One cell organisms.
Feeding substance or the lack of it, or irritants met on environment stand for sources of information. This type of information causes production of chemicals that lead to simple reaction of parts of the cell (genome, natural genetic engineering systems) or the whole of it. So we have here in away a mode of learning arc, where neural system is substituted by chemicals or the above engineering systems.
Matter.
If we make a bold jump of thought, we can say the four interactive forces, by which the simplest particles in the universe interact with one another, eg gravity, electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear forces are all, in other words, expression of communication between them.
So communication, eg information transfer is taking place even between non living matter staff and is essential to universe development. Of course this must happen on a more wide and complicated scale on living organisms and especially as regards to life development and evolution. It seems there is in nature, and it is logical to be, a continuum relating communication from simple matter to higher living beings.
Each animal has billions of neural cells
Is it logical to exclude this so rich and widespread function from the process of evolution ? This does not seem to be in accord to nature’s economy law.
I believe this was the result of Darwinians dogmatic belief that knowledge has no any whatsoever serious effect on evolution process.
That is why i believe we need to aknowledge the the importance of information's (and neural system's) role in evolution.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Larni, posted 06-21-2011 1:55 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 11 by Taq, posted 06-23-2011 1:45 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 16 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-24-2011 12:41 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 50 by Pressie, posted 06-28-2011 9:14 AM zi ko has replied

  
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Message 2 of 192 (620871)
06-21-2011 1:19 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 3 of 192 (620877)
06-21-2011 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by zi ko
06-21-2011 12:47 PM


Learning does not transfer to the genes: behaviour does, but not cognition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by zi ko, posted 06-21-2011 12:47 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 06-21-2011 1:56 PM Larni has replied
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2011 2:01 PM Larni has replied
 Message 12 by zi ko, posted 06-24-2011 8:50 AM Larni has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 192 (620878)
06-21-2011 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Larni
06-21-2011 1:55 PM


Oh come on Larni.
Look at them little brains in all them sperm cells.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 5 of 192 (620880)
06-21-2011 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Larni
06-21-2011 1:55 PM


Actually behaviour doesn't transfer to the genes either, rather it derives substantially from them.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Larni, posted 06-21-2011 1:55 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Larni, posted 06-21-2011 2:14 PM Wounded King has not replied
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2011 4:20 PM Wounded King has replied
 Message 13 by zi ko, posted 06-24-2011 9:43 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 6 of 192 (620883)
06-21-2011 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
06-21-2011 2:01 PM


Yeah, your right.
But allele frequency does change as a result of adaptive behaviour.
I guess 'transfer to' was pretty woolly thinking.
And I can only really wade up to my knees in the sphere of genetics so I could be talking completely out of my arse....
But zi ko is wrong, lol.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 7 of 192 (620884)
06-21-2011 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
06-21-2011 1:56 PM


Look at them little brains in all them sperm cells.
I'll read them some chemistry next time I'm washing them off the back of my hand.
Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 192 (620906)
06-21-2011 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
06-21-2011 2:01 PM


a little pedantry
Actually behaviour doesn't transfer to the genes either,
If said behavior was taking a radiation bath, then that could transfer to the genes, couldn't it?

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 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2011 2:01 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2011 4:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 9 of 192 (620908)
06-21-2011 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2011 4:20 PM


Re: a little pedantry
Not as a heritable tendency to take radiation baths.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2011 4:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 192 (620913)
06-21-2011 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Wounded King
06-21-2011 4:22 PM


Re: a little pedantry
Touche!

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 11 of 192 (621086)
06-23-2011 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by zi ko
06-21-2011 12:47 PM


Is it logical to exclude this so rich and widespread function from the process of evolution ?
Quite the opposite. The question is how do you define information as it relates to evolution, how do you measure it, and how do you model it. It is not a matter of excluding the idea of information. Rather, it is a question of how one models information in the process of evolution.
The problem I think you are having is our disagreement with creationists as to how information is measured in these systems. For example, no creationist has been able to measure complex specified complexity (CSI) in any meaningful manner. I can find the thread later if you are interested, but there was a discussion at Uncommon Descent not too long ago where someone asked the creationists how they would calculate CSI for some very simple evolutionary examples. No one was able to do it, nor could they figure out how it could be done.
On the flip side, one can derive information from genomic sequences by applying the theory of evolution. A perfect example of this is the SIFTER algorithm. SIFTER applies the theory of evolution to predict protein function, the functional information of a given sequence. From the paper:
quote:
SIFTER builds upon phylogenomics by employing statistical inference algorithms to propagate available function annotations within a phylogeny, instead of relying on manual inference, as fully described in Materials and Methods. Statistical inference requires a probabilistic model of how the character states (in this case, molecular function) evolve; to this end, we constructed a model of molecular function evolution to infer function in a reconciled phylogeny. Our model takes into account evidence of varying quality and computes a posterior probability for every possible molecular function (from the set of GO molecular function terms) for each protein in the phylogeny, including ancestor proteins. In our model, each molecular function may evolve from any other function, and a protein's function may evolve more rapidly after duplication events than after speciation events.
The result is an algorithm that can predict protein function with 96% accuracy, even with very little phylogenetic information to work from.
So how do creationists apply ID theory to predict protein function?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by zi ko, posted 06-21-2011 12:47 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by zi ko, posted 06-24-2011 10:36 AM Taq has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 12 of 192 (621163)
06-24-2011 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Larni
06-21-2011 1:55 PM


Learning does not transfer to the genes: behaviour does, but not cognition.
This is an unfortunate Darwinism axioma.In view of recent scientific findingsit is not true..I expect arguments (logical or from science research) and not just assertions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Larni, posted 06-21-2011 1:55 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Larni, posted 06-24-2011 1:06 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 13 of 192 (621170)
06-24-2011 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
06-21-2011 2:01 PM


Actually behaviour doesn't transfer to the genes either, rather it derives substantially from them.
I agree about behavior. But information....Epigenetics had proved that information has effect on perigenome area. So there is the mechanism that transfers information to perigenome.On the other hand we keep in mind that this information comes during life span only. Think what the effect would be if the same type of information comes again and again over manny, maybe million, of generations by empathy. In any case you have not any relative research to disproof it. Not me either. So we can believe at the moment what we like. You have heard i suppose about the 'function driven evolution' in Genetic Phylogeny by Sean D. Pitman M.D. October 2004 Updated April 2008 .
I don't give any teleology meaning to function. I simply say that it is in essense an evolution mode based on information transfer from environment to genome.About the same say Shapiro, b. Wright, Dobzansky, Weissman and Darwin himself.
,

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 06-21-2011 2:01 PM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Larni, posted 06-24-2011 1:09 PM zi ko has not replied
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-24-2011 4:11 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2011 4:34 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 14 of 192 (621177)
06-24-2011 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taq
06-23-2011 1:45 PM


Quite the opposite. The question is how do you define information as it relates to evolution, how do you measure it, and how do you model it. It is not a matter of excluding the idea of information. Rather, it is a question of how one models information in the process of evolution.
It seems we agree. somehow. My Neuro-genic theory of evolution (http://www.sleepgadgetabs.com) tries exactly how to model information in the process of evolution.
The problem I think you are having is our disagreement with creationists as to how information is measured in these systems.
I dont see it as a problem of mine. My theory has nothing to do with Creationism. Measuring information is a matter of research.If it is needed somebody will do it.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taq, posted 06-23-2011 1:45 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Taq, posted 06-24-2011 11:27 AM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 15 of 192 (621190)
06-24-2011 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by zi ko
06-24-2011 10:36 AM


It seems we agree. somehow. My Neuro-genic theory of evolution (http://www.sleepgadgetabs) tries exactly how to model information in the process of evolution.
Your link appears to be broken. Nonetheless, could you explain here how your theory can be used to analyze sequence data? Could you compare two homologous sequences from two species and show us how your theory can be used to measure the information in each sequence caused by neurogenic interactions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by zi ko, posted 06-24-2011 10:36 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 11:37 PM Taq has replied

  
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