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Author Topic:   Designed Virus
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1701 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 44 (302399)
04-08-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by kalimero
04-08-2006 12:37 PM


I'm confused are you or are you not ID? If you beleive in GOD, then how can you be unbiass towards other exlanations? Evolution is consistant and testable - that's (partly) why it's science, on the other hand you (not specificaly - but ID in general) seem to zig zag between the evidence (non consistent) and fill the gaps with scripture (not testable).
I am YEC, not ID. I disagree with much of ID as I've encountered it here at EvC, but I've also not studied it. I dispute that (macro)evolution is testable, and therefore I dispute that it is science, but I am not going to get into this here.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-08-2006 12:43 PM

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kalimero
Member (Idle past 2701 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 17 of 44 (302450)
04-08-2006 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
04-08-2006 12:41 PM


So, if you believe in God, how do you explain the "misdesigned" viruses? If God wanted to punish man wouldn't he make a very "well-designed" virus? What is the point of making a virus we can defend ourselves from? If God created everything in the first 6 or 7 days why would he create "a tool of punishment" before the offence was commited?

This message is a reply to:
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AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 241 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 18 of 44 (302459)
04-08-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by kalimero
04-08-2006 3:40 PM


Topic!
Whether or not the Christian God based on Biblical literalism could qualify as the intelligent designer of ID might make an interesting topic, but it isn't the theme here.
ID is the idea that there is evidence out there that demonstrates life could only have changed under the guidance of an intelligent designer at some point. The OP shows a wonderfully clever design use for virii, and seems to be asking something along the lines of 'Why did the designer not think of doing this, why are all virii seemingly harmful/designed badly?'
The YEC position for any evidence of good design is 'God did it' and evidence of bad design is 'The Fall'. This is not a position that ID can take since it makes pains to seperate itself from one religion or the other (otherwise it can't get taught in schools!).
So may I ask that both Faith and yourself desist in discussing the YEC view in an ID thread? Thanks.

Apologies in advance if YECers (or indeed RAZD) think I am over simplifying or misrepresenting their position.
This message has been edited by AdminModulous, Sat, 08-April-2006 09:14 PM

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This message is a reply to:
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kalimero
Member (Idle past 2701 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 19 of 44 (302464)
04-08-2006 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by AdminModulous
04-08-2006 4:12 PM


Re: Topic!
Ok,
but with whom shall I argue is there is nobody to make an ID argument on this topic? Its an interesting topic but there is nothing to argue; Evos conclude evolution, YECs cant object because they believe in the Fall, so I think we need someone from the ID side or this thraed is going nowhere.
{My humble apologies for going OT}

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AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 241 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 20 of 44 (302483)
04-08-2006 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by kalimero
04-08-2006 4:31 PM


Re: Topic!
but with whom shall I argue is there is nobody to make an ID argument on this topic? Its an interesting topic but there is nothing to argue
A dilemma for sure!
It might be the case that no IDer steps up to the plate on this one. Currently we don't seem to have many IDers regularly participating. It might be the case that this thread won't get much attention to start with, but an IDer might be referred here to discuss it later on. A good example of this phenomenon is this thread - it didn't spark much in the way of debate, but I referenced it recently when someone brought up the argument where it was off topic to discuss it.
It's no good just filling the thread up to 300 posts for the sake of arguing though. If you want to tackle YECers, there are plenty of threads to do that very thing! It would be wonderful if one day the guns fall silent and there is no more debate, so one might argue that the more threads go unresponded to the better...
Incidenally, the apology isn't needed, but it is appreciated. Topics tend to drift all the time, us Admins just try to catch them before the drift becomes terminal. I've had my fair share of warnings about it

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 6076 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 21 of 44 (302513)
04-08-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-08-2006 9:29 AM


Pinch-hitting for absent IDers.
So, how does "Intelligent Design" explain all the bad design carried by viruses and other {vector\delivery} systems?
1) It is not imperative that the designers use mechanisms we think are the best to employ, perhaps there are better ways we do not know of as yet.
2) It is possible that we have simply not seen the virii used by the designers, and it just so happens that many (and indeed most) free range virii are capable of doing all sorts of bad things, including mutation to harmful entities we need protection from.
3) It is possible that the "bad" virii are in fact serving a purpose of the designers, even if from our point of view they are doing it inefficiently.
Now let me take a shot back (turnabout being fairplay)...
Here are some people that altered a virus to intentionally have a novel function. Lets say that this had not been revealed to the public, perhaps a secret defense project. Then lets say the lab was hit by some explosive device destroying all those with knowledge of the project and records regarding what was going on... and at the same time scattering some of the virii.
If someone was to come upon these virii, and see this behavior, should they conclude that this was a result of normal mutation to a virus or the result of design? What characteristics would they use to make such a determination?
To those not in the know, I am not an ID theorist, I just play one from time to time on EvC.

holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6610 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 22 of 44 (302527)
04-08-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-08-2006 9:29 AM


The point is that viruses are an easy proven means to implement designed elements into organic systems, so why don't we see design improvements being delivered by various viruses?
Perhaps because the unknown designer and/or implementer(s) don't want to carry out any improvements at this point in time.
Since the ID crowd generally try to avoid any attempt to identify the designer - which means we cannot know the motives or goals of the man behind the curtain - there is no reason to expect to see improvements. Of course, there is no reason not to either.
So, how does "Intelligent Design" explain all the bad design carried by viruses and other {vector\delivery} systems?
Because that's what the signed-off Specification says they should do

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 131 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 23 of 44 (302533)
04-08-2006 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
04-08-2006 9:29 AM


RAZD writes:
So, how does "Intelligent Design" explain all the bad design carried by viruses and other {vector\delivery} systems?
Perhaps they were designed by the Not-Quite-As-Intelligent Adversary of the Intelligent Designer. There seems no inherent reason within ID to posit only one designer, and the other designer could be a devil or a competing though somewhat less advanced alien.
Hey, once you plump for one Intelligent Designer, why not go for two?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 6129 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 24 of 44 (302536)
04-08-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Omnivorous
04-08-2006 8:04 PM


Oh, I don't know. It seems pretty clear to me that the designer - based on the number of spandrels and vestigial bits floating around in various organisms that have no function or even rational explanation - had to be a committee. Why design a bug whose massive (in the sense that it's wayyyy more than needed for a bug) DNA contains ten million three nucleotide repeats? Obviously someone was asleep at the switch.

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 Message 27 by Faith, posted 04-08-2006 8:55 PM Quetzal has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 131 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 25 of 44 (302539)
04-08-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Quetzal
04-08-2006 8:23 PM


Eureka!
By Jove, I think you've got it! I just didn't pursue the logic far enough. A committee of designers, indeed--perhaps the Roman pantheon.
Let's see, using the standard Mob IQ Equation, we take the average member IQ and divide it by the number of members...no, wait, that's Congress...
Anyway, you're on the right track. If we put our heads together, we'll probably forget what we're taking about altogether. If not, RAZD could help out.
P.S. If you don't send me an address, I'll have to drink that bottle, and my surgeon says that might just kill me.
OTOH, it's your conscience.

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jar
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 44 (302541)
04-08-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Quetzal
04-08-2006 8:23 PM


Easy to understand
The designer was paid based on piece work, and ten million three nucleotide repeats was a banner day. Gotta put some cabbage aside to pay for the braces and so them little designers can go to college.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1701 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 44 (302544)
04-08-2006 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Quetzal
04-08-2006 8:23 PM


Why design a bug whose massive (in the sense that it's wayyyy more than needed for a bug) DNA contains ten million three nucleotide repeats? Obviously someone was asleep at the switch.
Curious about this bug. How much of its DNA is of the sort called "junk DNA"?

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 131 days)
Posts: 4001
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 28 of 44 (302548)
04-08-2006 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
04-08-2006 8:37 PM


Whoa...epiphany:
Piece work? The Intelligent Designer is an ILLEGAL ALIEN?!

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AdminOmni
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 44 (302549)
04-08-2006 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Omnivorous
04-08-2006 9:10 PM


Topic Veer Alert!
Omni, that's about one witticism too far--or half a wit short--but definitely not on topic.
Please return to form.

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    Trust me.

    This message is a reply to:
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    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1661 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 30 of 44 (302562)
    04-08-2006 11:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 21 by Silent H
    04-08-2006 6:17 PM


    Pinch-hitting for absent IDers.
    Thanks holmes. Unfortunately IDers seem to be fewer than ever ...
    1) It is not imperative that the designers use mechanisms we think are the best to employ, perhaps there are better ways we do not know of as yet.
    But that doesn't explain how counterproductive systems are allowed to interfere with the design process then. This points to a certain lack of competence, eh?
    2) It is possible that we have simply not seen the virii used by the designers, and it just so happens that many (and indeed most) free range virii are capable of doing all sorts of bad things, including mutation to harmful entities we need protection from.
    In other words the lab "lights are on but nobody's home" answer?
    Given that we can trace viruses back to the beginning of life, or at least to time of the split of the three major divisions of life that puts them in a major position to be a force majeure in the process control arena.
    The structure of a thermophilic archaeal virus shows a double-stranded DNA viral capsid type that spans all domains of life (click for the full PNAS article):
    Of the three domains of life (Eukarya, Bacteria, and Archaea), ... The sequence of the circular double-stranded DNA viral genome shows that it shares little similarity to other known genes in viruses or other organisms. By comparing the tertiary and quaternary structures of the coat protein of this virus with those of a bacterial and an animal virus, we find conformational relationships among all three, suggesting that some viruses may have a common ancestor that precedes the division into three domains of life >3 billion years ago.
    This means that either (a) the designers are incompetent at preventing them from acting against their design processes or (b) they are design mechanims but haven't been used in some time and thus have become corrupted by lack of quality control, and that this has been going on for some time.
    3) It is possible that the "bad" virii are in fact serving a purpose of the designers, even if from our point of view they are doing it inefficiently.
    This is a "god works in mysterious ways" cop-out, and is - of course - an unfalsifiable precept (and hence is not scientific), and one that only works (as does most of ID) on continued ignorance of {who\what\when\where\why\how} (otherwise known as the rest of the story ...).
    So we are left with:
    1. incompetent {supreme of some kind} being(s)
    2. {supreme of some kind} being(s) that no longer are involved in the minutae of daily human life (a deist position btw) or
    3. "we can't know" - as the essence of ID "scientific" input
    If someone was to come upon these virii, and see this behavior, should they conclude that this was a result of normal mutation to a virus or the result of design?
    If they could not rule out normal mutation as a process then that leaves them with a real challenge eh? It would be interesting to see if any of their design identification concepts could be applied to this virus and show significant differences from other viruses.
    Enjoy.

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