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Author Topic:   Jose Guerena
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 1 of 116 (616638)
05-23-2011 6:00 PM


Admin, if you feel this is spamming the forum, then please close this topic. I know it's unrelated to evolution/creation debate.
I've been observing the news for details about the incident ever since it happened. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just do a search for Jose Guerena.
For a short time, I actually quit my career in science and went into law enforcement. After a couple years being a cop, I decided it wasn't for me and so I quit that and went back to science.
Now, I'm not saying I'm an expert on law enforcement. But from my experience and observation, it has become clear to me that it is a standard practice for law enforcement officers to paint a more severe picture with their reports than what actually happened. There's no better well known example than what happened with Henry Gates. The cop that arrested him for disorderly conduct reported he was yelling and drowned out radio noises and such. Unfortunately for the cop, witness reports as well as recordings showed us a completely different scenario. Did the cop lie? Well... no. But he did exaggerate on the situation. Gates was trying to explain to the cop he lived there but all the cop saw was someone trying to resist arrest.
Now, I'm not putting law enforcement officers down. What I'm saying is that my couple of years in law enforcement has made me distrust police reports on a level that most people can't imagine. Most of the time, the reports don't lie. Every part of the report may be true, but the overall report is constructed to paint a totally different picture than what actually occurred.
That said, I'm seeing the same thing that's happening with the Jose Guerena case. I'm trying to give the sheriff in Tucson the benefit of doubt. I really do. But there are just too many conflicting reports and tell tale signs of exaggeration and misreports.
Days after the incident, swat team members reported they were littered with shots supposedly came from Guerena. And then a week after the incident, they backtracked and said Guerena never even fire a shot. They are refusing to report to the public whether they found any drug at all. However, a week after the incident, they reported they found large sums of money in his house. Then 2 weeks after they changed their story again and reported the money was actually found in another house.
What really turned on my alarm was the way they reported their actual findings. Everything had a tell tale sign of trying to paint the wrong picture for the public. The found guns and body armor... nevermind that Jose Guerena just came back from 2 tours in Iraq. They also found a picture of Jesus Malverde, which they reported as a drug icon, nevermind that it was actually a Mexican 1900 Robin Hood figure. As I understand it, Malverde's image is part of the Mexican culture. You can see his figurine and pictures just about anywhere. This is not to mention that none of the mentioned items is illegal.
I still have many friends in law enforcement. And I'm really trying to see this from the Sheriff's perspective. But so far I simply see too much bullshit coming from the swat team and the sheriff. And this scares the hell out of me.
Ok, so perhaps there are details they can't release because it's an ongoing investigation. I can understand that. Nowadays, I still have to go to court to testify against some dirtbags I got for possession and transportation with the intent... anyway... So, yes, I understand the need to keep things under wraps for now. But must they release so much bullshit?
What I have seen from the sheriff department is little more than "did glenn beck rape and murder a girl in 1990? I'm not saying he did, but it raises some interesting issues..." Technically, everything I said is true. But come on, we're not 2 year olds here.
What do you guys think? And yes, google is your friend if you don't know what I'm talking about with Jose Guerena.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by frako, posted 05-23-2011 6:20 PM Taz has replied
 Message 9 by Dogmafood, posted 05-24-2011 6:07 AM Taz has replied
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-24-2011 9:13 AM Taz has replied
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 05-27-2011 7:47 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 2 of 116 (616639)
05-23-2011 6:14 PM


Here is a blog that explains a little bit about the Jesus Malverde thing. To me, this is beyond cultural misunderstanding. This is downright purposely misunderstanding a different culture. What I mean by this is say I am from a completely different culture and have never seen boxing before (personally, I love to watch boxing). So, obviously the first time I saw it it looks barbaric and I see no difference between boxing and pitting 2 dogs together for a dog fight. So, later on when I find someone with a picture of Muhammed Ali, I'd point my finger and say "Aha! You support animal cruelty!"
Anyway, here's a blog that explains this better than I can.
Jose Guerena Evidence: Don't Buy Your Kids the Jess Malverde Bobblehead
Note that the blog pointed out a very interesting thing. Right now, the strongest evidence they have linking Guerena to a drug conspiracy is a picture of Jesus Malverde. And it's true, that's all they've given us. My question is why mention the picture of Jesus Malverde at all? Is it a crime for me to possess the following picture?
After all, robin hood was an outlaw, so surely I must be an outlaw, too.

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 3 of 116 (616642)
05-23-2011 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
05-23-2011 6:00 PM


Thats why i think that all swat teams should have head cameras so there can be no doubt if the shooting is justified or not. And since they did not have them anything could have gotten down he could have tried to shoot at them and they shot back (71 times lol) they could have been just trigger happy and gunned him down convinced he is a drug dealer and deserves it, ands that they are nov trying to cover up their mistake anyway they can.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 05-23-2011 6:00 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 05-23-2011 6:30 PM frako has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 116 (616644)
05-23-2011 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by frako
05-23-2011 6:20 PM


frako writes:
Thats why i think that all swat teams should have head cameras so there can be no doubt if the shooting is justified or not. And since they did not have them anything could have gotten down he could have tried to shoot at them and they shot back (71 times lol) they could have been just trigger happy and gunned him down convinced he is a drug dealer and deserves it.
Problem with this is a video can paint a wrong picture as well. Note that I haven't criticised swat for opening fire. I happen to thin they were justified. I also think Guerena was justified to point his gun at the swat. Especially when hs wife's sister was a victim of home invasion. The guy had a wife and a 4 year old to protect.
What I'm thinking is whoever the person to authorize the swat entry had poor judgement. Especially when they knew a 4 yr old was around. Why not knap him when he was at work and then search his home?
I can tell you this. If I have a child and you come blazing in my home I will shoot first and ask questions later. At The same time if I was a cop going in and someone points a gun at me I will fill his head up with lead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by frako, posted 05-23-2011 6:20 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by frako, posted 05-23-2011 8:55 PM Taz has replied
 Message 60 by Taq, posted 05-27-2011 3:50 PM Taz has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 5 of 116 (616668)
05-23-2011 8:55 PM


This entire event stinks.
And I think your take on the matter is correct.
It'll be swat teams giving out parking tickets at the rate we're going.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 6 of 116 (616669)
05-23-2011 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
05-23-2011 6:30 PM


Well yea the best strategic play would be to wait for him to leave the house and arrest him then search the house but not everybody is a strategist
Dont the police usualy scream tis is the police get on the ground now blabla bla ...., and they do this so people know that its the police pointing guns at them and entering their houses not some mugger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 05-23-2011 6:30 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 116 (616673)
05-23-2011 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
05-23-2011 8:55 PM


Dont the police usualy scream tis is the police get on the ground now blabla bla ...., and they do this so people know that its the police pointing guns at them and entering their houses not some mugger.
or so that you know that the muggers are the police?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by frako, posted 05-23-2011 8:55 PM frako has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 8 of 116 (616678)
05-23-2011 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
05-23-2011 8:55 PM


frako writes:
Well yea the best strategic play would be to wait for him to leave the house and arrest him then search the house but not everybody is a strategist
Dont the police usualy scream tis is the police get on the ground now blabla bla ...., and they do this so people know that its the police pointing guns at them and entering their houses not some mugger.
Different people react to different stressful situation differently. People might think that Guerena had gone on 2 tours in Iraq so he was able to handle the situation without at least a degree of control over his tunnel vision and hypo-sensitivity. But remember that he never had to deal with armed men in his own home with his 4 yr old present. We have no idea if swat yelled out "police, get down on the ground!" and Guerena never heard a word because his tunnel vision told him a bunch of home invaders were present and his 4yr old was also present.
Or, for all we know swat simply forgot to yell out "police, get down on the ground!"
But as far as their claims are concern, remember that days after the event the swat team members still maintained that they were fired at and that they had bullets hit them. And then a week after the event the department had to admit that absolutely no shot was fired by Guerena. In fact, his safety was still on when they shot him to death.
And not allowing medics to go in for 1 hr and 14 minutes really didn't help swat's side. They fired off 71 shots, hit him 60 times, and they thought he was barricaded?
Again, since I've been a cop and know the mentality behind police reports, I this whole thing looks more and more like bullshit to me.
For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, just try to understand this. There are many ways to present the facts honestly and still paint a completely fictitious picture. Case in point. They somehow managed to make Guerena look like a drug dealer by saying he's got a picture of Jesus Malvede. Everything they said in this regard is completely true. It is true that he's got a picture of Malvede... but so does half the rest of Hispanic population of the southwest. And Guerena was a suspect in a drug ring... but so were pretty much everyone else who's out walking about.
Edit.
They've also stated that he's got guns and body armor... but so does a kazillion other people. See how they could state completely accurate facts but paint a totally bullshit picture?
Heck, if they ever raid my home and see my arsenal, they'd probably paint me out to be some kind of revolutionary. And they'd probably interpret my star wars posters to mean I really am a revolutionary!
Again, all this bullshit info is coming straight from the top in Tucson. This scares the hell out of me.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 9 of 116 (616711)
05-24-2011 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
05-23-2011 6:00 PM


Be Afraid
Without all the facts it is pretty hard to make a judgement on whether or not the shooting was justified. It doesn’t sound like it but then who do we believe? However, I think it is safe to say that this is another example of what we get when we let fear run our lives.
I was pulled over the other month for an expired tag. The two officers approached the vehicle, one on either side, both with their hands hovering over their guns. This is mid day on a busy street in a small Ontario town where there might be one hand gun for every 10k people. After surrendering my papers and talking for a moment they both relaxed visibly. I had some beer in the back of the truck so they were apparently justified in giving me a breathalyser test. Before I could get into the cruiser to give a sample one officer asked me if I had any weapons. I was forced to surrender a utility tool that I carry, a pair of folding pliers with a knife and screw drivers. I laughed and asked him who should really feel threatened, me with a pair of pliers or them with two automatic weapons, extensive training, tazors, clubs, pepper spray and a shot gun in the trunk. On top of this, another cruiser pulled up to see if anybody needed a beating. He brushed it off saying it was routine. ‘Oh I see,’ I said, ‘you treat everyone like a criminal.’
And this is the problem. Everyone is a criminal in the eyes of law enforcement. They have adopted policies that place the safety of the officers well above the safety of the public. The rights of the individual citizen are discarded out of hand when there is even the remotest of potential danger. We have accepted that it is reasonable to judge something’s use by it’s abuse. The fact that 1 in a 1000 people might actually physically resist a police officer gives them cause to carry an arsenal of weapons and wear flak jackets. It gives them a justification to taze confused old men and young children. To shoot people who are running away or defending their home and family.
I fully realize that we need a strong law. That a strong law is what makes us free. It is what makes Canada and the US a better place to live than Somalia or Mexico. I also realize that we ask an impossible task of our police forces. That eventually we will have passed enough laws to make everyone a criminal. But when the police become ruled by their egos and fears and a sense of superiority, the whole thing begins to collapse. It leads to behaviour like that of Officer Bubbles It is completely disproportionate and out of line. We have allowed ourselves to be governed by our fears.
It reminds me of some lines from ‘Tweeter and the Monkey Man’ by the Travelling Wilburys.
‘The undercover cop pulled up and said everyone is a liar
If you don’t surrender now it’s going to go down to the wire.
Ambulance pulled up, state trooper close behind
Tweeter took his gun away and messed up his mind.’

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 05-23-2011 6:00 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 05-24-2011 11:52 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 116 (616724)
05-24-2011 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
05-23-2011 6:00 PM


What do you guys think?
Cops are liars who will do whatever that can to cover their own asses, especially when they make mistakes. They'll shit all over your rights in their attempts to get you to incriminate yourself. They'll intimidate you into yielding your rights if you'll let them. They'll assume you're guilty until proven innocent.
I don't trust them in the slightest.
Another example to add here is David Vasquez. The cops convicted this mentally disabled person of a murder he didn't commit after they forced into confessing to it.
They don't care about justice, they just want to "solve the crime". Too, they're too worried about showing their mistakes that they'd rather let an innocent man sit in jail than re-open a case that would show they made a huge mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 05-23-2011 6:00 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 05-24-2011 11:42 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 116 (616780)
05-24-2011 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
05-24-2011 9:13 AM


CS, you have a very naive attitude about this. You think everything is black and white, obvious for everyone to see. I'm sorry, but if things are this simple, then everyone would be able to see right through them.
Let me explain again. There are ways to report an incident with every individual fact stated accurately but to have the overall picture completely wrong. In this instance, it is very hard for you, the civilian, to prove otherwise. Why? (1) It's your word against a cop's. (2) If they ask you about it, you will have to confirm every detail in the report even though it is arranged in a way to make you look guilty.
Take a look again at Henry Gates, for example. According to the police report, he was interfering with police investigation and disturbing the peace. Well... technically that's true. But then if you really look again at the case, you can't blame a man for trying to explain that it's his own home he broke into. The police report also said Gates was loud and overwhelmed the officers. While both the recordings and witness reports confirmed otherwise, I actually saw no lies at all in the report. Why? Because in this instance, the cop was reporting on how HE felt at the time. God knows how he really felt.
The point is if they come for you, you're going to have trouble proving to people that they are lying because technically they're not. They're just presenting the facts in a completely different light and paint a completely different picture of the events than what actually happened.
I'm just warning you as a friend to be careful about this. Nothing is this obvious nowadays in life. Why do you think Asians have such a hard time proving certain racism against them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-24-2011 9:13 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 05-24-2011 12:06 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-24-2011 12:10 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 116 (616785)
05-24-2011 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dogmafood
05-24-2011 6:07 AM


Re: Be Afraid
Dogmafood writes:
Without all the facts it is pretty hard to make a judgement on whether or not the shooting was justified. It doesn’t sound like it but then who do we believe?
Let's work with the facts that we do have. Why do you think the shooting was not justified?
And this is the problem. Everyone is a criminal in the eyes of law enforcement.
But everyone is a potential criminal. Why? Because criminals know better than to distinct themselves from the rest of the populace. Welcome to reality where criminals don't always have a tatoo on their heads that say "criminal". This isn't the movies.
When I first joined my department, there was an alert from the southern part of the state. A cop was shot in the face by one of those tiny guns that look like a cigarette lighter. The cop was on duty, relaxed among his friends, and was just asking for a smoke by a passerby. Turned out the passerby was a cop hater and wanted to shoot the cop in the face. Instead of fire coming out of that little gun, a bullet came flying out right into the cop's face.
When I was working, I was always amazed how many people have a criminal record. In fact, a recent study show that roughly about 60% of the population has gone through the criminal system in one form or other. Again, this isn't the movies where a supercop can dodge a bullet and fire back, jumping up 8 feet into the air, and tackle the shooters.
I was pulled over the other month for an expired tag. The two officers approached the vehicle, one on either side, both with their hands hovering over their guns. This is mid day on a busy street in a small Ontario town where there might be one hand gun for every 10k people. After surrendering my papers and talking for a moment they both relaxed visibly. I had some beer in the back of the truck so they were apparently justified in giving me a breathalyser test. Before I could get into the cruiser to give a sample one officer asked me if I had any weapons. I was forced to surrender a utility tool that I carry, a pair of folding pliers with a knife and screw drivers. I laughed and asked him who should really feel threatened, me with a pair of pliers or them with two automatic weapons, extensive training, tazors, clubs, pepper spray and a shot gun in the trunk. On top of this, another cruiser pulled up to see if anybody needed a beating. He brushed it off saying it was routine. ‘Oh I see,’ I said, ‘you treat everyone like a criminal.’
From your description alone, I can see why some of their flags were raised.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dogmafood, posted 05-24-2011 6:07 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 05-24-2011 12:17 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 21 by Dogmafood, posted 05-24-2011 9:21 PM Taz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 116 (616789)
05-24-2011 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
05-24-2011 11:42 AM


Take a look again at Henry Gates, for example. According to the police report, he was interfering with police investigation and disturbing the peace. Well... technically that's true.
Well, no. No part of that was true, not even technically. Henry Louis Gates didn't do anything that "disturbed the peace"; to whatever extent the peace was disturbed it was disturbed by the actions of the police officer who unlawfully entered Gates' home, unlawfully refused to provide identification when asked, and unlawfully detained Gates who was not guilty of any crime. And the officer must have known all this because he's the one that did it.
The police report also said Gates was loud and overwhelmed the officers.
There was only one officer.
Being "loud" around a police officer isn't a crime, but false arrest is. What happened in the Gates case was that an officer felt that he had to break the law in order to be in control of the situation, because police believe they have to be in control of all situations they're in. All situations, full control.
We've created a police culture where the only lives police care about are their own. We've created a police culture where we've made police feel like civilians are expendable, because there are no civilians, only future criminals. We've made police feel like their lives are in danger every second they're on the job, even though being a police officer is safer than working at a gas station.
That's why Jose Guerena had to die - so that SWAT could be "in control of the situation", which was only a "situation" because they'd created one. We've trained police to feel like they're at war with literally everyone who doesn't have a badge.
Because in this instance, the cop was reporting on how HE felt at the time.
Then he was lying. We know for a fact why Gates was arrested and it's not because the officer felt that Gates was a threat to his safety or a threat to the community, it was because Gates was a threat to his dignity.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 05-24-2011 11:42 AM Taz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 116 (616791)
05-24-2011 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
05-24-2011 11:42 AM


CS, you have a very naive attitude about this.
No, I just hate cops
Let me explain again. There are ways to report an incident with every individual fact stated accurately but to have the overall picture completely wrong. In this instance, it is very hard for you, the civilian, to prove otherwise. Why? (1) It's your word against a cop's. (2) If they ask you about it, you will have to confirm every detail in the report even though it is arranged in a way to make you look guilty.
Take a look again at Henry Gates, for example. According to the police report, he was interfering with police investigation and disturbing the peace. Well... technically that's true. But then if you really look again at the case, you can't blame a man for trying to explain that it's his own home he broke into. The police report also said Gates was loud and overwhelmed the officers. While both the recordings and witness reports confirmed otherwise, I actually saw no lies at all in the report. Why? Because in this instance, the cop was reporting on how HE felt at the time. God knows how he really felt.
Well sure, but that's what I mean. Cops are liars who will do whatever they can to get you incriminated because they just want to solve a crime and don't care about justice or peoples' rights.
The point is if they come for you, you're going to have trouble proving to people that they are lying because technically they're not. They're just presenting the facts in a completely different light and paint a completely different picture of the events than what actually happened.
The best thing to do is allow them to have as little facts to distort as possible. Simply refuse to talk to them and tell them to arrest you if they need you for anything and then they can get it through your lawyer.
I'm just warning you as a friend to be careful about this.
Well thank you. But I'm just not going to bother with them. Take me to jail or leave me alone. I don't have anything to say.
Why do you think Asians have such a hard time proving certain racism against them?
Because their food is so delicious?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 05-24-2011 11:42 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Taz, posted 05-24-2011 12:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 116 (616793)
05-24-2011 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
05-24-2011 11:52 AM


Re: Be Afraid
But everyone is a potential criminal. Why?
Because criminalizing regular people is how police "maintain control" of the situations they're in.
When I first joined my department, there was an alert from the southern part of the state. A cop was shot in the face by one of those tiny guns that look like a cigarette lighter. The cop was on duty, relaxed among his friends, and was just asking for a smoke by a passerby. Turned out the passerby was a cop hater and wanted to shoot the cop in the face. Instead of fire coming out of that little gun, a bullet came flying out right into the cop's face.
Sounds like a one in a million random crime. You know, the kind that regular people like us are subject to all the time. Sometimes from police.
But it happened to a cop, so naturally it becomes a statewide bulletin that puts every cop on edge; the entire police apparatus is hypersensitive to any perceived violence against cops because of the mythology that there's nothing more dangerous than being a police officer, that every cop is a split-second away from violent death. Never mind that it's not even on the top twenty most dangerous jobs, or that the vast majority of cops won't be shot at even once in their lives. Cops want to think that they're on the edge, that they're the heroes standing between their families and chaos, so they're hypersensitive to events like your bulletin.
And the thing is - it probably didn't even happen. But somebody hears a story about it, a statewide alert goes out, and now cops are on edge. The result? Half a dozen people shot dead by hair-trigger cops in incidents where all they were armed with were cigarette lighters.
I know you think it's perfectly reasonable to suspect all civilians of being hardened criminals who could kill you at any moment. The problem is, you turn a blind eye to the criminals who look like cops. After all, the authority and training in violence afforded to police officers is pretty attractive to psychopaths.
From your description alone, I can see why some of their flags were raised.
Sure - Dogmafood did not immediately and obsequiously defer to police authority. He made the mistake of thinking that he was talking to a workaday joe just like himself, not a sociopath with a government-issued monopoly on violence.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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