Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   If our sun is second or third generation, does this not conflict with Genesis ?
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 136 of 231 (720236)
02-21-2014 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
05-24-2011 11:00 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
There was no Biblical Flood. Never happened.
Bs'd
You have any proofs for that assumption, or are you just rambling about without any proof?
There was no Tower of Babel as described in the story. Never happened.
You have any proofs for that assumption, or are you just rambling about without any proof?


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 05-24-2011 11:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 8:01 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 231 (720238)
02-21-2014 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 7:35 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
Of course there are proofs that the Biblical flood never happened and I have presented them here many times.
In fact the Bible proves that the Biblical flood never happened.
I will present it yet again in the hope that you will never again post anything as silly as an assertion that the Biblical flood ever happened.
quote:
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:
quote:
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:
quote:
2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.
We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:
quote:
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earthmen and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the airfor I am grieved that I have made them."
and in Genesis 7:
quote:
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."
In both myths lots of critters get killed, in the myth found in Genesis 6 it seems to be talking about land animals and birds while the myth found in Genesis 7 goes even further and wipes out all living things.
If we play mix and match and take the best scenario from each of the myths we might be able to claim that only the birds and land animals were wiped out based on the passage from the Genesis 6 story and that we have the larger saved population found in Genesis 7.
Based on that mix and match game set we have a situation where all land animals and birds found today will be descended from a population that consisted of at most fourteen critters (seven pairs of clean animals and birds) and at worst case four critters (two pair of unclean animals).
Now that is what I would call a real bottleneck.
We know we can see bottlenecks in the genetic record; a great example is the one in Cheetahs but we even see them in the human genome and most other species.
BUT...
If the flood actually happened we would see a bottleneck in EVERY species of animal living on the land and EVERY bird and EVERY one of the bottlenecks show up in the SAME historical time period.
Talk about a big RED flag.
That bottleneck signature would be something every geneticists in the world would see. It would be like a neon sign, Broadway at midnight on New Years Eve. It would be something even a blind geneticist could see.
So it seems to me to be a very simple test that will support or refute the Flood.
If that genetic marker is there in EVERY species living on land or bird of the air, then there is support for the flood. It does not prove the flood happened but it would be very strong support.
If on the other hand that genetic marker is NOT there, then the Flood is refuted.
And there is no genetic bottleneck signature common to all animals pointing to the same event; thus the Biblical flood has been totally and completely refuted.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 7:35 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 8:51 AM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 138 of 231 (720241)
02-21-2014 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 7:30 AM


Re: Mythology...
Is there any point in replying to you, or is this discussion going to end the same way as The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution where you just declare your position and walk away?
Eliyahu writes:
With the big-bang theory, science made an about-face, and brought itself in line with what the Bible claims for already 3300 years: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Theory changed because of evidence discovered by Hubble of an expanding rather than static universe. It didn't change to become more in line with the Bible, and in fact the change agreed hardly at all with the Bible. Science thinks the universe is 13.7 billion years old, the Bible around 6000. Science thinks the earth is 4.56 billions years old, the Bible around 6000. Science thinks that time might be an illusion and that the very question, "When did things begin?" makes no sense.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 7:30 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 8:45 AM Percy has replied
 Message 153 by Eliyahu, posted 02-22-2014 2:19 PM Percy has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 139 of 231 (720243)
02-21-2014 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
02-21-2014 8:29 AM


Re: Mythology...
Theory changed because of evidence discovered by Hubble of an expanding rather than static universe. It didn't change to become more in line with the Bible
Bs'd
Thank you for kicking in that open door. Of course it didn't change in order to get more in line with the Bible, but it DID get enormously more in line with the Bible.
From an eternal universe to one with a beginning, like the Bible says, that is an enormous change.
, and in fact the change agreed hardly at all with the Bible. Science thinks the universe is 13.7 billion years old, the Bible around 6000. Science thinks the earth is 4.56 billions years old, the Bible around 6000. Science thinks that time might be an illusion and that the very question, "When did things begin?" makes no sense.
Time is relative. More than half a century after Einstein that should be common knowledge. So there is no problem to squeeze 15 billion years into six days.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 02-21-2014 8:29 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Percy, posted 02-21-2014 9:50 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 151 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-21-2014 2:08 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 140 of 231 (720245)
02-21-2014 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
02-21-2014 8:01 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
And there is no genetic bottleneck signature common to all animals pointing to the same event; thus the Biblical flood has been totally and completely refuted.
It really is that simple.
Bs'd
A bit TOO simple.
There are several solutions to that problem. For instance, the marker for that bottleneck is there, it just has not been found yet.
Maybe it is found, but science is covering it up.
Maybe we just don't need that marker, something science is only going to discover in the future,
And I can think of more things like this.
The fact that every old culture has a flood story, with many common themes like those mentioned in the Bible, that proves that there was a global flood.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 8:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:07 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 141 of 231 (720246)
02-21-2014 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Adminnemooseus
05-11-2011 7:54 PM


Re: Reference please, etc.
God created light 3 days before creating the sun.
Bs'd
That is another point where science solved the puzzle for us.
For thousands of years the joke was: "How could there be light when the sun was created later??"
Now science has solved the burning question what was there first, the chicken or the egg?
The sun of the light?
Science tells us: First there was light, and only later the sun.
Yet another problem solved.
.
.
.
HalleluJah!!
.
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-11-2011 7:54 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 8:59 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 02-21-2014 11:50 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 142 of 231 (720247)
02-21-2014 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 8:58 AM


Re: Reference please, etc.
Bs'd
You see, as science progresses, it lines up more and more with the Bible.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 8:58 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 143 of 231 (720249)
02-21-2014 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 8:51 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
More utter nonsense.
For instance, the marker for that bottleneck is there, it just has not been found yet.
Too bad quite a few examples have been fully sequenced. It's simply not there.
Maybe it is found, but science is covering it up.
Then it would be really simple for the so called and mislabeled Biblical scientists to test.
But they don't acause it ain't there.
Maybe we just don't need that marker, something science is only going to discover in the future,
Whether we need it or not is irrelevant. If any of the Biblical flood myths were true it has to be there.
And it ain't.
The fact that every old culture has a flood story, with many common themes like those mentioned in the Bible, that proves that there was a global flood.
That has to be one of the stupidest, idiotic assertions ever made. Of course lots of flood myths do not mean there was a global flood. It might mean that floods happen most everywhere though and guess what?
Floods happen most everywhere.
Sorry but the idea that there was a Biblical flood has been refuted for well over a hundred years.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 8:51 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 9:15 AM jar has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 144 of 231 (720254)
02-21-2014 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by jar
02-21-2014 9:07 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
The fact that every old culture has a flood story, with many common themes like those mentioned in the Bible, that proves that there was a global flood.
That has to be one of the stupidest, idiotic assertions ever made. Of course lots of flood myths do not mean there was a global flood. It might mean that floods happen most everywhere though and guess what?
Floods happen most everywhere.
Bs'd
Floods happen almost everywhere. YES!
Except in the desert maybe, but OK, floods happen almost everywhere.
And so do wars, pestilences, forest fires, earthquakes, etc etc.
However, there are no end of the world stories occurring globally with the same elements futuring earthquakes, forest fires, plagues, or whatever. Just doesn't exist.
What does exist however, is more than 300 flood stories, spread out over the whole world, with the same elements; one family escaping on a boat, birds being send out to check if the world is dry, a rainbow as a divine sign.
So therefore, we have a strong proof that the flood did happen.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:29 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 231 (720258)
02-21-2014 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 9:15 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
What does exist however, is more than 300 flood stories, spread out over the whole world, with the same elements; one family escaping on a boat, birds being send out to check if the world is dry, a rainbow as a divine sign.
So therefore, we have a strong proof that the flood did happen.
Sorry but that is simply not true.
And even if it was true it is not evidence of a global flood.
But again, that is irrelevant, unimportant.
The fact is that all the evidence for a Biblical flood is completely refuted if that bottleneck signature is not there. It does not matter how much evidence there is for something if even one fact refutes it.
It really is that simple.
No honest person today can ever claim that the Biblical flood happened.
What they might claim is that despite the fact that the Biblical flood myths have been refuted they wish to continue to believe them.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 9:15 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 9:35 AM jar has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 146 of 231 (720260)
02-21-2014 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
02-21-2014 9:29 AM


I study Genesis and the rest of the Torah non-stop.
Sorry but that is simply not true.
Bs'd
From where do you get that ugly & mistaken idea that it is not true??
And even if it was true it is not evidence of a global flood.
But again, that is irrelevant, unimportant.
The fact is that all the evidence for a Biblical flood is completely refuted if that bottleneck signature is not there. It does not matter how much evidence there is for something if even one fact refutes it.
The fact is, that there are no facts in science.
Viewpoints now declared holy by science, may be in on the garbage heap tomorrow when new evidence has come to light that refutes that what was yesterday an indisputable scientific fact.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:47 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 149 by Coyote, posted 02-21-2014 10:25 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 147 of 231 (720264)
02-21-2014 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 9:35 AM


Re: I study Genesis and the rest of the Torah non-stop.
From where do you get that ugly & mistaken idea that it is not true??
From reality.
If you believe that I am wrong then simply present the more than 300 flood stories, spread out over the whole world, with the same elements; one family escaping on a boat, birds being send out to check if the world is dry, a rainbow as a divine sign.
But as I point out, even if those stories existed the Biblical flood myths are refuted by the missing bottleneck signature.
If you believe that is wrong then simply present the evidence that the bottleneck signature actually is there.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 9:35 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 148 of 231 (720267)
02-21-2014 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 8:45 AM


Re: Mythology...
Eliyahu writes:
From an eternal universe to one with a beginning, like the Bible says, that is an enormous change.
But science didn't stop in 1930. Current speculations within science include a "before" the Big Bang and a possibly eternally expanding/contracting universe. And as I already mentioned, time is possibly an illusion, rendering moot questions regarding a "beginning."
Time is relative. More than half a century after Einstein that should be common knowledge. So there is no problem to squeeze 15 billion years into six days.
But the Bible has the heavens and earth being created simultaneously ("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..."), while science has them created billions of years apart.
As we continue to follow the evidence science will continue to change. If you want to interpret some changes as being more consistent with the Bible that's your business. It has nothing to do with science.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 8:45 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 149 of 231 (720273)
02-21-2014 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 9:35 AM


Re: I study Genesis and the rest of the Torah non-stop.
The fact is, that there are no facts in science.
Viewpoints now declared holy by science, may be in on the garbage heap tomorrow when new evidence has come to light that refutes that what was yesterday an indisputable scientific fact.
BfD
You are confusing facts and either hypotheses or theories.
Better study some science before you pontificate on it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 9:35 AM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-21-2014 1:58 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 150 of 231 (720311)
02-21-2014 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Coyote
02-21-2014 10:25 AM


Re: I study Genesis and the rest of the Torah non-stop.
Eliyahu writes:
What does exist however, is more than 300 flood stories, spread out over the whole world, with the same elements; one family escaping on a boat, birds being send out to check if the world is dry, a rainbow as a divine sign.
So therefore, we have a strong proof that the flood did happen.
No, you want to imply because other people had myths about floods that yours must be true. That does not hold water (hehe) at all, especially because there is no evidence worldwide for a flood at the same time. Perhaps, a more consilient explanation is the fact that many early cultures began near sources of water, what with requiring it to grow food, drink water, and all around basically survive. When floods occurred and caused damage these people included these tales in their myths. That is a far more logical assumption than the world was entirely flooded and no evidence was left behind.
In fact, if it was global and all humans are descended from the Noahic family line then we should see these identical flood myths in not just a lot of cultures, but in all cultures because they all stem from the same initial breeding population. However, the biggest death nail is that one culture (which we know a great deal about) does not have nearly a similar flood myth.......The Egyptians. Their flood myth does not even end with the deaths of all of the Egyptian people, but rather the God responsible for causing it, Hathor, floods the world with the blood of those she kills. Ra decides the punishment, while not total, has been enough and orders slaves (Living humans after the flood happens) to make a lake of beer for Hathor to drink while she is drinking the blood. She drinks it, gets drunk and gets bored of slaughtering everyone...
...Now, how on Earth can you claim this is justification for a myth of a global flood that destroys all but eight people of humanity? Perhaps, the logical answer of floods causing massive destruction so people tell stories about them for years to come is the best answer not your ridiculous claim, sans evidence. I mean, look at Hurricane Katrina, this happened 9 years ago and we are still talking about it even though other hurricanes have followed. We humans love to talk about devastation.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Coyote, posted 02-21-2014 10:25 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Eliyahu, posted 03-04-2014 7:28 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024