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Author Topic:   How New Testament Fundi Christians Bless Atheists, Roman Catholics And Others
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 112 (611794)
04-11-2011 1:55 AM


Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Fundamentalists who promote the New Testament fundamentals have been among the majority in nations which are the most free, prosperous and blessed over all. The US has traditionally been the free place to which most immigrants have desired to go.
On the other hand, last century, estimates ranging from sixty million to a hundred million have been murdered by their own atheistic minded communist governments in Europe and Eastern communist regimes as well as Cuba.
Atheists on this board like Cavediver and other apostates from fundamentalist Christianity have denounced the very ideology which has prevailed in this nation in which these folks have had the privilege to have been citizens of.
They are killing the proverbial golden goose that has been laying their proverbial golden eggs. Not only that, but what they are advocating is what is leading to the demise of the American dream for us all, as history attests.
Historically, Roman Catholic nations have also not been as prosperous and blessed as the US. Take a look around the nations. Note the history of prominent Roman Catholic nations such as Mexico, Spain, Italy, etc, as well as the American Native Americans where RC has been the dominant Christian religion of them, coupled with paganism. There's Haite, where RC mixes with pagan voodoo to make that looser nation what it's been. Compare some of the South American prominent RC nations, with largely Protestant fundi US.
Almost 90% of Mexico's population is Roman Catholic About 5% are Protestant. Previous to that, going back to our founding, the percentage of Roman Catholics in the US was significantly less and Mexico was close to 100% RC.
Perhaps some of our members here who have went so far as equating Christian fundies to al-Quada need to count their blessings afforded to them by the fundamentals of Christianity practiced by true Christian fundies.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 112 (611795)
04-11-2011 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 1:55 AM


The Elusive Topic
Just what exactly is it that you are trying to argue here?

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-11-2011 1:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 112 (611797)
04-11-2011 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 1:55 AM


Reality tells a different story.
In Western Europe, Christian Fundamentalists are a distinct minority.
The U.S.A. was founded as a secular state according to the ideals of the Enlightenment. It hardly seems to owe a lot to Fundamentalist Christianity.
Spain is not a major power now - but it was once. If Catholicism does not prosper, then how did that ever happen ?
And if you actually look at the present you will hardly find Fundamentalist Christians as the main supporters of freedom in the U.S. - In fact many seem to think of freedom as only the right for THEM to do what THEY want - riding roughshod over everyone else. That is not freedom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-11-2011 1:55 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 112 (611800)
04-11-2011 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
04-11-2011 2:34 AM


PaulK writes:
The U.S.A. was founded as a secular state according to the ideals of the Enlightenment. It hardly seems to owe a lot to Fundamentalist Christianity.
oh, i dunno about that. an argument could be made that it was fundamentalist christianity that convinced our founding fathers that we should have a secular government.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 112 (611804)
04-11-2011 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
04-11-2011 2:34 AM


PaulK writes:
Reality tells a different story.
In Western Europe, Christian Fundamentalists are a distinct minority.
And, of course, it was Western Europe from which the Plymouth folks left, risking their lives from oppression. It was Western Europe from which Hitler was able to arise to instigate the Jewish Holocaust. It is Western Europe which is now becoming rapidly socialistic and Islamized.
Paulk writes:
The U.S.A. was founded as a secular state according to the ideals of the Enlightenment. It hardly seems to owe a lot to Fundamentalist Christianity.
Wrong! How could that be when church was held in the halls of congress and the New England Primer, the Bible and Watt's Hymnal were in the public schools?
The Constitution and First Amendment disallowed any state religion sect. Thus Biblical scriptures were inscribed in Washington DC's buildings and Christian prayers were said, swearing on the Bible, etc.
PaulK writes:
Spain is not a major power now - but it was once. If Catholicism does not prosper, then how did that ever happen ?
Have you forgotten your history? Remember the part about the Spanish Inquisition? Historically, Spain has not been a bastion of freedom, especially for Protestants.
PaulK writes:
And if you actually look at the present you will hardly find Fundamentalist Christians as the main supporters of freedom in the U.S. - In fact many seem to think of freedom as only the right for THEM to do what THEY want - riding roughshod over everyone else. That is not freedom.
It is fundamentalist Christian policies which have been implemented by due process at the poles that makes the laws. If you don't like certain laws, work harder to get your way. In recent decades it's been working quite well on the behalf of the secularist ideologies of you people.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2011 2:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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ScientificBob
Member (Idle past 4263 days)
Posts: 48
From: Antwerp, Belgium
Joined: 03-29-2011


Message 6 of 112 (611805)
04-11-2011 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 8:52 AM


Buzsaw writes:
It was Western Europe from which Hitler was able to arise to instigate the Jewish Holocaust.
Not really. it was post world war 1 germany from which Hitler was able to arise. Much of western europe stood AGAINST nazi germany, remember?
Buzsaw writes:
It is Western Europe which is now becoming rapidly socialistic and Islamized.
I live in western europe and I have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
Socialistic? Islamized? Where do you pull this stuff from? Fox News and Geert Wilders movies?

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 7 of 112 (611807)
04-11-2011 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 1:55 AM


Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Fundamentalists who promote the New Testament fundamentals have been among the majority in nations which are the most free, prosperous and blessed over all. The US has traditionally been the free place to which most immigrants have desired to go.
Except that fundies are not even now in the majority in the US, and were at even a lower percentage before the last half-century or so. The Methodists, Episcopalians, Congregationalists, and others like them were the politically/culturally dominant sects, not the Luddites, Campbellites, Southern Baptists, and JW's.
So your argument is stillborn, Buz.
leading to the demise of the American dream for us all, as history attests.
What the fuck are you talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-11-2011 1:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 8 of 112 (611808)
04-11-2011 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 1:55 AM


Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Fundamentalists who promote the New Testament fundamentals have been among the majority in nations which are the most free, prosperous and blessed over all.
Well lets take a look at some
Namibia 70% protestant
It is the second least densely populated country in the world, after Mongolia. Approximately half the population live below the international poverty line, and the nation has suffered heavily from the effects of HIV/AIDS, with 15% of the adult population infected with HIV in 2007.
south africa in general a bad place to live 70% protestant
98% protestant Tuvalu
bad place to live, basically the countries main income is foreign aid.
oh and as you happened to mention Germany and Hitler Germany has 34% protestants

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 112 (611809)
04-11-2011 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 8:52 AM


Wrong! How could that be when church was held in the halls of congress and the New England Primer, the Bible and Watt's Hymnal were in the public schools?
The motivations and aspirations of Plymouth settlers and Jamestown settlers were very different from one another. Plymouth was settled by, what was considered to be by the Church of England, heretics. The basic dogma of these "heretics" remain today and make up the bulk of Christian fundamentalism.
Jamestown, however, was largely a secular province. Many, if not most, were likely religious people, but they were not nearly as fanatical about it. And even as far south as Boston from Plymouth (which is geographically not very far), secularism and religiosity simply coexisted, as it does today.
The private and public writings of the Founding Fathers make it very clear that there were both deists (which is nothing less than the progenitor of skepticism) and Christians. Not all the Founding Fathers were as Christian as John Jay or as secular as Thomas Jefferson.
So in the truest sense, neither side can claim total allegiance. Like most societies, their allegiances were divided, just as they are today. And should we expect anything less? America was neither a Christian nation nor a secular nation... It's simply a nation with people of varying beliefs.
The Constitution and First Amendment disallowed any state religion sect. Thus Biblical scriptures were inscribed in Washington DC's buildings and Christian prayers were said, swearing on the Bible, etc.
There is a fantastic article, written by a Christian, in fact, who gives a fair and balanced look at this very debate. He condemns revisionist historians, both religious and atheistic, for attempting to paint pictures of a landscape that never existed, or at the very least, has been distorted for ideological reasons.
On your side of the spectrum, he writes:
"Those who insist that America was founded as a Christian nation run roughshod over the historical record. They use the words of the Founding Fathers to support Republican jeremiads on the moral decay of American life. If only this country could return to its Christian roots, they say nostalgically, everything would be okay.
And how do they demonstrate that America was founded as a Christian nation? By selectively choosing texts from the writings of the Founders without any effort to explore them in the context of the 18th-century world in which they were written. Just because John Adams and George Washington quoted from the Bible or made reference to God does not mean that they were trying to construct a Christian nation. Granted, the Founding Fathers were the products of a Christian culture, but most of them were never comfortable with the beliefs that defined this culture. Very few of them would qualify for membership in today's evangelical churches."
He then continues on:
"let's remember that the secular left is not immune to errors of historical thinking. While evangelicals misinterpret the references to God in the words of the Founding Fathers, their critics simply have no idea what to make of those same quotations. Since they can't fathom why people today would make religious faith an essential part of their everyday lives, they have little interest in making sense of past worlds where such beliefs were important.
Such approaches to history seldom enable us to better understand the past. Thinking historically does not mean that people cannot learn from the past -- they should and must. But they should be careful how they use historical examples. Exploring the past requires a concern for what it was really like.
The past is like a foreign country. Those who enter it as guests should try to understand its foreignness in a way that respects our dead ancestors who inhabit it. We must not invade the past with the goal of remaking it into our own image."
Is America a Christian Nation? What Both Left and Right Get Wrong | History News Network
It's a mistake to try and reinvent the past, and it would be foolish to unequivocally categorize the US' past as either secular or Christian when it reality it was a bit of both.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 04-11-2011 8:52 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 112 (611811)
04-11-2011 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 1:55 AM


Buzsaw writes:
The US has traditionally been the free place to which most immigrants have desired to go.
And yet, Canada has received wave after wave of refugees from the United States - United Empire Loyalists, fugitive slaves, war resisters. Even today, we have refugees from America's foreign policy in Latin America.
Your New Testament fundie Christians were pretty slow to "bless" those people with the freedoms that they wanted.
And our largest religious denomination is Roman Catholic. You have people running from the fundies to the Catholics.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 112 (611812)
04-11-2011 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 1:55 AM


Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Fundamentalists who promote the New Testament fundamentals have been among the majority in nations which are the most free, prosperous and blessed over all.
Canada, Switzerland, and New Zealand come to mind as nations that rank higher than the US on the freedom scale who couldn't be summarized as Protestant Christian Fundamentalist nations.
Why are they so "blessed?" Maybe there is no supernatural reason, Buz. Perhaps it's simple common sense. Countries that leave other countries alone are generally left alone to prosper.
The US has traditionally been the free place to which most immigrants have desired to go.
Buz, people go where the money is. Nicaraguans go to Costa Rica because Costa Rica is prosperous. Taiwanese often go to Hong Kong because it is prosperous. People come to the United States because it is (er, was) prosperous, your supernatural inventions aside.
If what you say is true, there should be no earthly reason why Hong Kong should be as economically viable as it is.
what they are advocating is what is leading to the demise of the American dream for us all, as history attests.
So is it prosperous because of God's hand over the US or not? You can't have it both ways. Either God is pulling all the strings or he isn't.
Historically, Roman Catholic nations have also not been as prosperous and blessed as the US.
Then how is it that they've all survived just fine? Why do you narrowly view religion as playing the only significant factor in a countries success?
There's Haite, where RC mixes with pagan voodoo to make that looser nation what it's been.
Buz, I know Haitians, I worked with them all the time. I can tell you that most young Haitians don't even know what Voodoo is. It's a dying relic of the past, not a contemporary problem.
And that people like that vulture from the 700 Club sensationalize tragedy to try and advance his brand of ultra rightwing fundamentalism is pathetic, un-Christian, and un-American.
Perhaps some of our members here who have went so far as equating Christian fundies to al-Quada need to count their blessings afforded to them by the fundamentals of Christianity practiced by true Christian fundies.
You only want to recognize the fundamentalists you want to recognize, which is very selective. If someone pointed out to you that White Identity groups are also fundamentalist Christians, you reject the equivocation out of hand.
In that instance, you see no correlation. But if Mexico is predominantly Catholic, it somehow explains why they economically struggle?
What about Brazil then? They're almost entirely Catholic and they are the most prosperous nation in South America with signs of slowing. What's your reason that they are successful, even though they're evil Catholics?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 112 (611818)
04-11-2011 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 1:55 AM


More utter Crap from Buz
I'm sorry Buz but it's pretty obvious that you know as little about history and reality as you do about the Bible and Christianity.
The Puritans were treacherous dishonorable and violent people that had been asked to leave anywhere nice people gathered.
If the US has prospered it is because folk rejected the narrow minded bigotry that was the Puritans.
The US was founded as a secular nation precisely because no one ever wanted to see a Puritan in a position of power.
Secular also does not mean that all religion must be excluded, it means that political decision cannot be made based on one religion or one sects dogma.
I know of NO blessings the US has ever received from Christian Fundies, maybe you can actually provide some evidence for THIS unsupported assertion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 112 (611829)
04-11-2011 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Hyroglyphx
04-11-2011 10:25 AM


Spirtual or Secular?
Buzsaw writes:
Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Fundamentalists who promote the New Testament fundamentals have been among the majority in nations which are the most free, prosperous and blessed over all. The US has traditionally been the free place to which most immigrants have desired to go.
It seems we are confusing a secular (partially religious) culture which has constitutional freedoms with Protestants. One question to ask is this: Would God bless the religious people and curse the secular?
Buzsaw writes:
Perhaps some of our members here who have went so far as equating Christian fundies to al-Quada need to count their blessings afforded to them by the fundamentals of Christianity practiced by true Christian fundies.
If I accept blessings from God, should I not also attribute cursings and economic hardships to Him as well? Would it be wrong to suggest that many of the blessings of the US were taken through economic and social expansion over a land rich in natural wealth? If everyone suddenly converted to Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Fundamentalism tomorrow, would our problems go away?
Hyroglyphx writes:
America was neither a Christian nation nor a secular nation... It's simply a nation with people of varying beliefs.
Much of our laws evolved from English Common Law and from the Ten Commandments before that. Evidence does seem to show that our laws have evolved independent of any Biblical direction, and quite frankly, this allowed us to repeal slavery, as one example.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Countries that leave other countries alone are generally left alone to prosper.
I don't understand why we Americans spend so much money on wars and on causes outside of our country, yet dont address our domestic problems first.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-11-2011 10:25 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 14 of 112 (611831)
04-11-2011 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 8:52 AM


Buzsaw writes:
It is Western Europe which is now becoming rapidly socialistic and Islamized.
No it isn't, Buz. My country for example is currently run by a government with a right leaning agenda (in fact, the most right leaning it's been since I was born), and it (the government) is supported by Geert Wilders (in fact they need the votes he brings in parliament to get anything done). Are you seriously saying that Geert Wilders of all people would be pro-islamization?

This message is a reply to:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 15 of 112 (611832)
04-11-2011 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-11-2011 1:55 AM


Native Americans
I wonder how blessed the native Americans feel? Tell me how Fundy christians have helped them?

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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