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Author Topic:   Going to hell? Fringe lunatics
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 31 of 56 (611476)
04-08-2011 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by ICANT
04-07-2011 8:22 PM


A christian is a person living a life like Christ lived.
Cursing people to age or drop down dead, commanding dragons, that kind of thing?

This message is a reply to:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 32 of 56 (611477)
04-08-2011 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by sac51495
04-07-2011 11:05 PM


Re: Christ: the Seed of the Woman
"And I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel." - Genesis 3:15
All biblical scholars and theologians cite this as an obvious prophecy of Jesus Christ, that is, the reference to the seed of the woman. What is significant here is that it refers to Christ as the seed of the woman, not of the man.
This "obvious" prophecy is what first made me realise just what pure bullshit is spouted in Christian circles when it comes to Biblical interpretation. I kept quiet about it through the last ten years of my life as an evangelical Christian...

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 33 of 56 (611483)
04-08-2011 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by frako
04-07-2011 7:40 PM


Read the Book
quote:
If there is such a thing as god, The way the god of the bible is totally screwed in the head if you read the bible or look at reality you can see it clearly. Makes me think that he only lets atheists in heaven and when a believer comes to the gates of heaven he laughs as he dips him in molten lava then eats him. <--- house.
Which shows you haven't read the book to understand what the writers were telling their audience.
Fringe lunatics seem to thrive on the hearsay and cherry picking. Mainstream Christianity already indulges in promoting doctrine that is based on evolving traditions based on pagan influence and cherry picking from the Bible, which don't seem to be centered on what the writers of the Bible were actually telling their audiences.
Basically, everyone will go to "hell". IOW, we all will die one day.
Eternal life is supposedly for the righteous.
So what information do you base your comments on?

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 34 of 56 (611501)
04-08-2011 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
04-07-2011 6:53 PM


I agree with your post.
I am not saying that the bible does not say any of these things. I think my opening post might be mis-understood. It is not that I reject the sound doctrine you have outlined, the topic is simply saying that as Christians, yes - we preach the message, for all have sinned. That's the point - to mark one groups sins is to be self-righteous.
Remember when Jesus said the one who asks for mercy goes away justified, but the judgemental religious person didn't?
All I am saying is that it is dangerous ground to believe that a particular person is hell bound, CERTAINLY, when we have not known them.
I am not saying that means that they are saved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 04-07-2011 6:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 35 of 56 (611502)
04-08-2011 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by purpledawn
04-07-2011 7:03 PM


No - if we are looking at it according to some kind of Greek-thinking, a modern rationalism, which was irrelevant to the Hebrew writers, then Paul said one thing he claims comes from God, and Jesus, a supposed historical figure, says what He claims comes from God.
I don't think I should have to explain the obvious, but as Christians, we take the whole bible as the inerrant inspired Word of God, as a whole and we interpret the bible, by the bible, in a complete whole context. Basically, we take it all as true, and any potential "contradictions" we deem as anomolies that come via contextual or syntax or linguistics, or misunderstandings missapplied by Greek thinking.
Therefore you would believe Paul and Peter said some things, perhaps God another, whereas we believe what the bible says, that they both spoke as from the Holy Spirit.
Now Paul, the apostle, is linked to Christ, in that the Gospel he preached, we accept, as part of the scriptures.
Therefore when God accepts the righteous, we interpret "righteousness" as that which is imputed to us, by the new law of the spirit of life.
Who is "righteous", in the context of the New Testament? Well - it tells us, that Christ has become our righteousness. That is how we would see it.
But to take one thing as the word of God, and another perhaps not from him. At what stage do you begin and end?
Do we accept just what Jesus says? Perhaps not the law, but perhaps the prophets, or perhaps just a few parable from Jesus? What's to stop you just saying it is all false, if you are going to explain in under rational thinking?
So if Jesus walked on water, what do I do, to remain rational? Do I simply say he didn't walk on water because we know this to be against scientific principles?
Yes - there are difficulties, we can't neatly pidgeon hole absolutely everything, but we believe that the New Testament is pretty clear as to what it is about. We study it to help us flow with the WHOLE message, not just out-of-context apparent problems.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 56 (611503)
04-08-2011 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
04-08-2011 11:42 AM


mike the wiz writes:
I don't think I should have to explain the obvious, but as Christians, we take the whole bible as the inerrant inspired Word of God, as a whole and we interpret the bible, by the bible, in a complete whole context. Basically, we take it all as true, and any potential "contradictions" we deem as anomolies that come via contextual or syntax or linguistics, or misunderstandings missapplied by Greek thinking.
Not quite. It is misrepresentation to imply that your position is some "Christian" position because that is simply untrue.
It may be the position of your particular Chapter of Club Christian but certainly not the position of all Christianity.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 04-08-2011 11:42 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 37 of 56 (611512)
04-08-2011 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ICANT
04-07-2011 8:22 PM


I have never met a person that is following Jesus who would do any of those things. Jesus didn't do any of them.
A christian is a person living a life like Christ lived.
Anybody that claims to be a christian and is not living a life like Christ did is a liar and the truth is not in him/her.
The passage you quoted said absolutely nothing about behavior.
It specifically said that anyone who "believes on" Jesus gets into heaven, and anyone who doesn't gets to burn.
The doctrine of salvation by faith has long supported the idea that anyone can get into Heaven regardless of past sins, that being the entire point. We;re all supposed to be sinful, right from the start; a murderer is as bad as a thief is as bad as a liar is as bad as everybody else because of Original Sin, which is a hereditary condition. Salvation is then attained for everyone by the "full free pardon" you so love to refer to, the human sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth paying the sentence of death for everyone past, present, and future, with the only caveat being that, bizarrely, you have to "believe on him" to receive it.
Works don't matter - the point of the Salvation by Faith doctrine is that it directly contradicts the competing Salvation by Works doctrine that held some popularity previously. If Hannibal Lector converted to Christianity and "believed on" Jesus, he gets into heaven. If Ghandi dies without accepting Jesus, he burns. Simple as that.
The logical endpoint of this doctrine is that total hedonism is just fine; the Commandments are irrelevant, morality doesn't matter, all that's required is that you "believe on" Jesus and you get to go to heaven. If you don't believe, whether you're as bad as Hitler or as good as Ghandi, you burn the same either way.
Christian apologists like to try to combine the two doctrines using a variety of rationalizations. The most common perhaps is the No True Scotsman fallacy that you use - "nobody who believes on Jesus would do things like that." You then exclude people who would otherwise be saved under the Salvation by Faith doctrine by saying that they must not have really believed, they weren't really Christians, etc.
Other tactics have included the doctrine of predestination - you're either saved or not before you were even born, and you can tell who is saved by their works, even though free will has nothing to do with it. This one has fallen rather out of favor.
The point remains, however, that Salvation by Faith means that works don;t matter. You can't get into heaven by being good - everybody burns, that's the default state thanks to Original Sin, from charity workers and human rights activists to mass murderers and rapists. You get into heaven by believing on Jesus, and the "full free pardon" belief grants you covers all sins, and functions as a total "get out of hell free" card. A rapist and murderer who believes gets into heaven along with Mother Theresa, just like the rapist and murderer who doesn't believe burns just like Ghandi.

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Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 38 of 56 (611519)
04-08-2011 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by mike the wiz
04-08-2011 11:32 AM


Hi Mike,
mike the wiz writes:
I am not saying that means that they are saved.
I have lived with my wife for 54 years and I think she is saved, born again but I don't know for sure only Jesus knows for sure.
All I know is that I have met the requirements that Jesus set down for me to receive eternal life. I do not know about anybody else.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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 Message 34 by mike the wiz, posted 04-08-2011 11:32 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 39 of 56 (611564)
04-08-2011 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by mike the wiz
04-08-2011 11:42 AM


quote:
No - if we are looking at it according to some kind of Greek-thinking, a modern rationalism, which was irrelevant to the Hebrew writers, then Paul said one thing he claims comes from God, and Jesus, a supposed historical figure, says what He claims comes from God.
Based on what? Paul does not claim to speak for God. He wrote letters to specific people/groups.
If you can make such a claim, I'm sure the fringe groups can make a Biblical case for what they claim concerning hell. They have their belief and find the verses to support it I'm sure.
I agree that the writers of the Bible were inspired by God, but inspiration is not dictation. Inspiration doesn't mean one is talking for God. Overall, Paul does not claim to speak for God.
quote:
I don't think I should have to explain the obvious, but as Christians, we take the whole bible as the inerrant inspired Word of God, as a whole and we interpret the bible, by the bible, in a complete whole context. Basically, we take it all as true, and any potential "contradictions" we deem as anomolies that come via contextual or syntax or linguistics, or misunderstandings missapplied by Greek thinking.
But all the early church father's didn't and all Christians today don't.
The book of John was written in "Greek thinking". The writer Hellenized Jesus.
quote:
Yes - there are difficulties, we can't neatly pidgeon hole absolutely everything, but we believe that the New Testament is pretty clear as to what it is about. We study it to help us flow with the WHOLE message, not just out-of-context apparent problems.
Exactly! We are to understand the whole message. To understand the message of a story or letter, one has to know who is talking.
So I would be correct in saying that God said: "A man will give all he has for his own life. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face." (Job 2:4-5)
Or that God said Jesus was possessed by Beelzebub! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons. (Mark 3:22)
The problems come when people try to make the Bible something it isn't.
quote:
Do we accept just what Jesus says? Perhaps not the law, but perhaps the prophets, or perhaps just a few parable from Jesus? What's to stop you just saying it is all false, if you are going to explain in under rational thinking?
So if Jesus walked on water, what do I do, to remain rational? Do I simply say he didn't walk on water because we know this to be against scientific principles?
Now you can see how the fringe group can take things to extreme.
I simply said Paul was speaking, not God. That has nothing to do with Jesus, parables, or the prophets. Reason tells us that when Paul writes a letter, Paul is talking. If he is talking for God, he will say so. Reason also tells us that when a writer says that a certain character or person said something, he actually means that character or person said something and not that God is saying it all. Your way the Bible becomes useless gibberish and the fringe can easily build on that foundation with their own gibberish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by mike the wiz, posted 04-08-2011 11:42 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 40 of 56 (611611)
04-09-2011 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by purpledawn
04-08-2011 5:54 PM


purpledawn writes:
I agree that the writers of the Bible were inspired by God, but inspiration is not dictation. Inspiration doesn't mean one is talking for God. Overall, Paul does not claim to speak for God.
If the inspiration is from God then wouldn't all the conclusions drawn by the inspired whilst under inspiration conform to God's view? For example:
quote:
Acts 18:9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city. 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
What practical difference God's view issued by dictation or inspiration?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 41 of 56 (611627)
04-09-2011 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by iano
04-09-2011 9:37 AM


Inspiration is not Dictation
quote:
If the inspiration is from God then wouldn't all the conclusions drawn by the inspired whilst under inspiration conform to God's view?
Not necessarily. If that were true, then there wouldn't be or have been any disagreements amongst those inspired to write, speak, or teach.
quote:
Acts 18:9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city. 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
Who is the Lord in this verse?
I understand it as Jesus, not God.
Paul teaching the word of God, doesn't mean his letters were the word of God.
I feel it is incorrect to say that God said all have sinned, when he didn't. Paul doesn't claim to be speaking for God and to assume that whatever he says is God's view is inappropriate.
The fringe just takes mainstreams generalizations and run with them. If mainstream can ignore who is speaking and who isn't, so can the fringe. Just another step up the rung.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by iano, posted 04-09-2011 9:37 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 42 of 56 (611628)
04-09-2011 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by purpledawn
04-09-2011 2:19 PM


Re: Inspiration is not Dictation
purpledawn writes:
Not necessarily. If that were true, then there wouldn't be or have been any disagreements amongst those inspired to write, speak, or teach.
Whether there are or aren't disagreement is a matter of interpretation. I was more interested in how an inspired person could be speaking other than God's opinion - in the technical, how-could-this-be sense rather than depending on interpretation to simply state so.
IF there was indeed disagreement (which is quite a different thing to an interpretation concluding so) AND the various parties were inspired in what they said THEN God would appear to be giving contradictory messages.
Else they weren't inspired in the bits where they disagree.
Which is it (if not some other possibility)?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 56 (611629)
04-09-2011 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by iano
04-09-2011 2:31 PM


Re: Inspiration is not Dictation
iano writes:
purpledawn writes:
Not necessarily. If that were true, then there wouldn't be or have been any disagreements amongst those inspired to write, speak, or teach.
Whether there are or aren't disagreement is a matter of interpretation. I was more interested in how an inspired person could be speaking other than God's opinion - in the technical, how-could-this-be sense rather than depending on interpretation to simply state so.
IF there was indeed disagreement (which is quite a different thing to an interpretation concluding so) AND the various parties were inspired in what they said THEN God would appear to be giving contradictory messages.
Else they weren't inspired in the bits where they disagree.
Which is it (if not some other possibility)?
By not understanding, by misrepresentation, by forgetfulness, ...
The person may well be wrong or totally misunderstand God's opinion.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 04-09-2011 2:31 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 44 of 56 (611651)
04-09-2011 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
04-09-2011 2:39 PM


Re: Inspiration is not Dictation
jar writes:
By not understanding, by misrepresentation, by forgetfulness, ...
The person may well be wrong or totally misunderstand God's opinion.
Perhaps. But if you thought that then you wouldn't also be saying this..
purpledawn writes:
I agree that the writers of the Bible were inspired by God
Inspired .. but somewhat forgetful writers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 04-09-2011 2:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 04-09-2011 6:02 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 56 (611652)
04-09-2011 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by iano
04-09-2011 5:59 PM


Re: Inspiration is not Dictation
Of course. Even inspired buy incompetent, inspired but mislead, inspired by unconvinced ...
Even inspired to write fiction.
Edited by jar, : add fiction

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by iano, posted 04-09-2011 5:59 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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