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Author Topic:   Ken Ham is ... EXPELLED
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 76 (609996)
03-25-2011 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Percy
03-25-2011 6:28 AM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
Percy writes:
I don't think there are too many creationists out there "faking" an understanding of evolution.
I agree. Homeschooled students have high scores not because they understand evolution but because they aren't being asked about evolution. If they go on to higher education, they will be asked.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2011 8:17 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 76 (610000)
03-25-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taq
03-25-2011 11:25 AM


Re: beliefs and profession
There is the example of Marcus Ross who seems to be able to so compartmentalize that he can do valid paleo work (for example categorizing ammonites fossils to improve dating in the Cretaceous) where he freely acknowledges that the Cretaceous was well over 65 million years ago, but then when he is in the big money Christian Cult of Ignorance venues he claims to support a literal Biblical young earth.
Now of course he is employed by Liberty University and so part of that is forced on him by contract, but I personally have problems with what I see as his (and even more the Christian Cult of Ignorance' use of his credentials) as misleading and misrepresentation. In his speaking at YEC marketing shows his Ph.d from the University of Rhode Island is also referenced, subtly implying that a secular university indorses what he happens to be speaking on at the YEC conclave.
Of course, that is simply false. It is just another example of palming the pea, misdirecting the audience attention, lying.
Another example is John Baumgardner, who does do some valid work, but his work also totally refutes the YEC material he markets.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 63 of 76 (610001)
03-25-2011 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taq
03-25-2011 11:25 AM


Re: beliefs and profession
We already know what they will say, that what is being measured is really a reflection of a common originating designer rather than evolutionary relatedness. We know this because they say it a hell of a lot of the time to try and dismiss arguments based on homology at all sorts of levels.
TTFN,
WK

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 76 (610029)
03-25-2011 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
03-25-2011 9:53 AM


Re: Slev will not be a creationist very long
Has Slevesque ever claimed to be YEC?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 03-25-2011 9:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 03-25-2011 6:04 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2011 6:19 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 76 (610031)
03-25-2011 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by NoNukes
03-25-2011 5:50 PM


Re: Slev will not be a creationist very long
I believe so. But then I may well be wrong. It is an untenable position though for anyone honest about the evidence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 66 of 76 (610032)
03-25-2011 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by NoNukes
03-25-2011 5:50 PM


Re: Slev will not be a creationist very long
He claims that the evidence favours a young Earth, so yes, he is quite definitely a YEC and far more familiar with YEC propaganda than the evidence. You will notice that he often makes quite strong claims about subjects he knows very little of, and that his position is usually based more on prejudice than knowledge or understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2011 5:50 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2011 8:00 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2011 8:08 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 76 (610038)
03-25-2011 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by PaulK
03-25-2011 6:19 PM


Re: Slev will not be a creationist YEC very long
PaulK writes:
He claims that the evidence favours a young Earth, so yes, he is quite definitely a YEC and far more familiar with YEC propaganda than the evidence. You will notice that he often makes quite strong claims about subjects he knows very little of, and that his position is usually based more on prejudice than knowledge or understanding.
All he has to do in order to drop the YEC is to reread Genesis one word by word, thoughtfully, especially verses relating to days one through four. That won't work for ToE, though.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 03-25-2011 6:19 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 76 (610040)
03-25-2011 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
03-25-2011 11:28 AM


Re: Homeschooling conventions
ringo writes:
Percy writes:
I don't think there are too many creationists out there "faking" an understanding of evolution.
I agree. Homeschooled students have high scores not because they understand evolution but because they aren't being asked about evolution. If they go on to higher education, they will be asked.
There's always Google, for a refresher or new insight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 11:28 AM ringo has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 76 (610041)
03-25-2011 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by PaulK
03-25-2011 6:19 PM


Re: Slev will not be a creationist very long
PaulK writes:
He claims that the evidence favours a young Earth, so yes, he is quite definitely a YEC and far more familiar with YEC propaganda than the evidence.
Interesting.
I think some YEC apologetics about the evidence are pretty difficult to maintain even while taking a physics undergraduate curriculum. It will be harder to believe nonsense about the second law of thermodynamics after learning the real thing, more difficult to swallow nonsense about radiometric dating after taking course work in atomic physics and quantum mechanics. But most of all, it will be harder to believe that real physicists are liars and/or fools after spending considerable time among them and the evidence.
Of course that will may simple lead to an understanding that the evidence does not support a young earth. It might take more to actual change belief in YEC.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 76 (610042)
03-25-2011 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
03-25-2011 11:28 AM


Re: Scientific Aspirations
ringo writes:
....... Home schooled students have high scores not because they understand evolution but because they aren't being asked about evolution. If they go on to higher education, they will be asked.
They will know where to go for answers which they have not remembered or known. If they share Sleve's aspirations, they will go on to higher education where they will learn the answers. Likely Sleve's first employment as a scientist, like most professions, will begin where he is able to handle all that comes on his plate.
Not only that, but he will have knowledge acquired from all PoVs.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 11:28 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 9:08 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 71 of 76 (610053)
03-25-2011 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Buzsaw
03-25-2011 8:17 PM


Re: Scientific Aspirations
Buzsaw writes:
If they share Sleve's aspirations, they will go on to higher education where they will learn the answers.
The problem is that they won't get the answers that they want to hear. Homeschooling can avoid real science up to the high school level but no post-secondary education is going to support creationism.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2011 8:17 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2011 9:40 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2011 10:36 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 76 (610056)
03-25-2011 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
03-25-2011 9:08 PM


Re: Scientific Aspirations
ringo writes:
Homeschooling can avoid real science up to the high school level but no post-secondary education is going to support creationism.
I don't believe this to be correct. Most college graduates in the US took their last biology class in the high school and have avoided taking any college level science courses that deal with cosmology or any other origins topic in any serious way. It's even easier to avoid real science in college than it is in high school.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 9:08 PM ringo has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 76 (610064)
03-25-2011 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
03-25-2011 9:08 PM


Re: Scientific Aspirations
ringo writes:
The problem is that they won't get the answers that they want to hear. Homeschooling can avoid real science up to the high school level but no post-secondary education is going to support creationism.
They will teach what their employer hires them to teach. In some situations, they may have the opportunity to answer questions of students pertaining alternative views which those students may wonder about.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 9:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 03-25-2011 11:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 74 of 76 (610066)
03-25-2011 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
03-25-2011 10:36 PM


Re: Scientific Aspirations
Buzsaw writes:
They will teach what their employer hires them to teach. In some situations, they may have the opportunity to answer questions of students pertaining alternative views which those students may wonder about.
Who said anything about teaching? We were talking about slevesque, who's pursuing a science degree. He might be able to get a physics degree while turning a blind eye to evolution but he's not going to learn anything at university that supports creationism.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 03-25-2011 10:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 75 of 76 (610081)
03-26-2011 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
03-25-2011 8:00 PM


Re: Slev will not be a creationist YEC very long
quote:
All he has to do in order to drop the YEC is to reread Genesis one word by word, thoughtfully, especially verses relating to days one through four. That won't work for ToE, though.
Of course you are wrong here (as usual). There is nothing there that contradicts a YEC view.
Like ICANT you simply assume that the Bible must agree with YOU. Even when it contradicts you. (No, I haven't forgotten the way you run away from Daniel 8).
Of course if he learned of the scientific evidence he would be much more likely to drop the YEC view as people like Glen Morton have. In fact if he is studying physics he might learn enough astronomy to see problems with YEC belief. (Like Hugh Ross).

This message is a reply to:
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