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Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
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Author | Topic: Supernatural and undiscovered means of detection | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
I recently had a conversation with a friend that claims to be an atheist, but has strong beliefs in the supernatural. He claims there is proof ghosts exist and such.
His argument is that we just have not invented the means to detect them. His favorite argument is that at one time we could not detect quarks, but now we can. I have tried to explain that a basic difference here is that quarks are something that science predicted and then were later explained in a more concrete manner. For ghosts there are no scientific predictions.The concept of ghosts are contrary to the scientific method, because "ghost hunters" are looking for evidence that fits their idea of ghosts. He claims the EVP(electronic voice phenomena" is hard evidence of ghosts. Does anyone have any ideas of how to continue to counter this argument of his, or does anyone support his argument? P.S.Dr. Adequate What happened to Skepticwiki? Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
I doubt that the real reason for his belief in ghosts is EVP.
Exactly.I asked him for evidence for ghosts and he said EVP is evidence. He and his wife think a ghost lives in their house, because of odd sounds. Also, they say things are moved when no one around. I offered to investigate scientifically and surprisingly they refuse. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
Of course it only happens when someone is alone in the house.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
you are little better than the loons you're trying to disprove. You miss a huge point. There was a scientific concept of medicine and the development of new medications. The discovery of anti-biotics was based on previous scientific knowledge. Show me any existing scientific knowledge that shows that anything supernatural exists. You seem to be buying into the psuedoskeptic argument. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
Ok, let me get this straight. Are you saying that anything that has never been previously predicted by mainstream science cannot possibly exist?
Not at all. Your argument seems to be that we should find things that are outside of the scientific method. I am saying that using the scientific method we have found no evidence of the supernatural. EVP, ghostly photos, and all other means of "ghost" detection ahve not stood up to scientific inquiry. When something does I then will consider the possibility, until then I have no reason to have a belief in ghosts. Why would it have to be ghosts? The belief in ghosts is like the belief in creation science. People that believe in both take the existence of both as a fact then try to shoehorn the evidence to fit. Why is it ghosts? How about aliens, sprites, gnomes. leprechauns or any other supernatural entity?
Show me any existing scientific knowledge that shows that anything supernatural exists.
(1) If we truly follow this statement of yours, science would never make any progress whatsoever. One of the strongest basis of science is that it allows for things we haven't thought of or haven't discovered yet to exist. (2) It seems to be a popular thing nowadays to label something as supernatural or label someone as a conspiracy theorist in order to discredit them.
Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying ghosts would not be supernatural?
(3) Do you have anything to say at all beside "it's supernatural, therefore it must not exist"? Do you see the problem here? First, you assume that anything that is supernatural must not exist. Then you assume that ghosts are supernatural. Do you see a problem with your conclusion here?
I did not say that. I said that until there is evidence there is no reason to even consider. Show me some evidence for ghosts and I will consider the concept.
You, sir, are the reason why so many people misunderstand science and it's skeptical nature.
Science should rely on evidence. I am skeptical until there is evidence. If there is no evidence I am not willing to consider a belief in the supernatural. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
It seems you haven't even read the OP.
Try reading it then try producing a post that actually deals with it. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
Ghosts are a concept with no scientific predictions or evidence. Correct?
The concept exists without any evidence. The concept of quarks exists with evidence. Are you agreeing with my friend that we just may have not found a means of detection that will prove ghosts exist?
What I am saying is that by saying such thing to your friend you're only propagating the misconception that skeptics say no to everything.
In no way am I saying that. I am saying that unless there is evidence there is no need to believe or consider. Someone once said that one should not be so open minded that their brain falls out. I think you are making lots of assumptions of me and the OP. Just because you infer something does not mean that it was implied. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
GDR writes: Mirriam-Webster's Definition of SUPERNATURAL1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil 2a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit) It does fit the bill for the first part of the definition in that it is talking about something beyond the "visible observable universe". To go beyond that we are definitely into the speculative. I guess you can stretch visible and observable to mean anything if you think dark matter falls under supernatural Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
GDR writes: Taq writes: If something has a predictable effect on the natural world and is potentially describable through some sort of scientific law then I would include it as natural, not supernatural. As of the moment, dark matter appears to have predictable effects on the natural world (e.g. gravitational lensing, rotation of galaxies) and seems conducive to being described by scientific laws. Here are some of the other statements in the magazine about the article.
quote: quote: quote: And what pray tell do any of these statements you quote have to do with anything. Maybe you should try explaining the point you are trying to make. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
they are talking about in that article might be considered supernatural. How you get to supernatural from that article is a heck of a stretch. If that qualifies as supernatural, so do radio waves, xrays and anything else not visible to the human eye. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9488 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
He posted this link on my Facebook page.
A Physicist’s Explanation of Why the Soul May Exist quote: I haven't read the original paper. Probably over my head anyway. I see no evidence it was ever published in any journal. Here is a link to it.http://www-physics.lbl.gov/~stapp/Compatibility.pdf What little I have read so far and criticism of him, it seems he uses a lot of assertions and little or no evidence. I haven't been able to find any other scientists that support his idea. Seems to be just more woo.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. |
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