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Author Topic:   Japan
jar
Member
Posts: 34046
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


(1)
Message 106 of 175 (609231)
03-17-2011 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Rahvin
03-17-2011 3:13 PM


Re: pretty
One thing that seldom gets mentioned is that radiation contamination is really one of the easiest forms of contamination to detect.
That's simply not true of many of the other poisons out there.
See e Coli.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2011 3:13 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 107 of 175 (609232)
03-17-2011 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Rahvin
03-17-2011 3:07 PM


Re: Wrong.
Rahvin writes:
"I'll take that as a concession on all points."
Sure, I would expect no less. And as I have stated before all of my opinions are just that. So what. Nothing you say changes the reality of what is happining right now. Multiple nuclear melt downs. None of your concise, well formulated, bulletproof, logical arguments mean squat. Coal seam fires or Mexican hit squads ...so what. Annnd?
7.8 to 10 on the Earth quake scale.. how do you think those people feel right about now, that they're whole world is in ruin?
The public always pays for the certainty of experts who convince us with graphs and clap trap how safe shit is, until it is deems unsafe. Then they shift the blame and begin damage control. Spare me. Wanna lick some radium paint off this perfectly safe product?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2011 3:07 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2011 3:38 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4221 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 108 of 175 (609233)
03-17-2011 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by 1.61803
03-17-2011 2:59 PM


Re: pretty
1.61803 writes:
go ahead. I'll pass. Why your at it go have a swim at Bikini, and perhaps a bit of sushi in Fukashima.
If you flip for the bill then I got my passport ready, I would love to go visit Chernobyl and bikini...hell why not where we tested in the Aleutians also...and the south Atlantic....and lets not forget the Nevada test site....looks like craters of the moon one valley west of area 51...north of Vegas...we poped them off underground in Mississippi.. google operation plow share and gas buggy. I respect radiation same as I do electricity. I even have transmitting tubes in my HF amplifier that contain radioactive elements...if one broke and I ingested some or inhaled it, it wouldn't be good...course if your watch has tritium so numbers glow in dark you wouldn't want to eat it either.
Don't let propaganda and irrational fear of radiation keep you from researching it. There are many man made disaster...love canal...DDT/agent orange...Lakes at coal fired power plants where signs tell you to eat no more than 6 oz a week of fish caugt in them, and pregnant women shouldnt eat none.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by 1.61803, posted 03-17-2011 2:59 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by 1.61803, posted 03-17-2011 3:31 PM fearandloathing has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 109 of 175 (609235)
03-17-2011 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by fearandloathing
03-17-2011 3:24 PM


Re: pretty
Hi, your right...But I would rather to go to St. Peters and indulge in some
Endangered Beluga caviar and champaine, while I lounge in a pair of baby seal slippers. I realize how idiotic my irrational fears are in regards to radioactive materials. Call it a lifetime of American kneejerk, hyper- indoctrination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by fearandloathing, posted 03-17-2011 3:24 PM fearandloathing has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 110 of 175 (609237)
03-17-2011 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by 1.61803
03-17-2011 3:23 PM


Re: Wrong.
Rahvin writes:
"I'll take that as a concession on all points."
Sure, I would expect no less. And as I have stated before all of my opinions are just that. So what. Nothing you say changes the reality of what is happining right now. Multiple nuclear melt downs. None of your concise, well formulated, bulletproof, logical arguments mean squat. Coal seam fires or Mexican hit squads ...so what. Annnd?
7.8 to 10 on the Earth quake scale.. how do you think those people feel right about now, that they're whole world is in ruin?
The public always pays for the certainty of experts who convince us with graphs and clap trap how safe shit is, until it is deems unsafe. Then they shift the blame and begin damage control. Spare me. Wanna lick some radium paint off this perfectly safe product?
You're behaving like a child.
Look at what you post - you're specifically saying "no new information would ever change my mind, I will never concede anything on this subject despite my lack of personal knowledge or the fact that I've not done any research to counter your arguments. I'm emotionally charged and frightened, and so nuclear power is bad, end of story."
And for the record, while Fukushima is in the middle of a severe nuclear crisis with the potential to become much worse, we don;t really know that we're seeing a meltdown right now. The problem areas are not the reactor cores but rather the used fuel storage pools, which have lost enough water and pumping capacity to (from what we think is happening) expose the spent fuel to the air and steam from the evaporating water.
In a meltdown, the fuel rods reach criticality and begin a nuclear chain reaction, essentially an unchecked version of what happens in a regulated manner inside an operational reactor. That's basically what happened at Chernobyl, because the control rods jammed and the reaction went out of control.
Spent fuel, because of its very nature as spent, is too highly contaminated with the products of the fission reaction to actually begin that chain reaction, which is why it's not still in the reactor core in the first place.
What can happen at this point is a reaction between the now-exposed and really-hot cladding on the spent fuel and the air/steam, resulting in cracking Oxygen/Hydrogen from the water vapor and causing a buildup of Hydrogen. This as we all know is a highly flammable and explosive combination, so the concern is that a hydrogen bubble could form of sufficient size to break through more of the containment area and spread particulates into the general area. The results of that would not be good, as at least one of the reactors has recently been refuelled, meaning at least a portion of the spent fuel will still contain some of the short-lived but very highly-radioactive isotopes that can cause harm very, very quickly.
Basically all action being taken right now is to cool the spent fuel pool so that a hydrogen bubble does not form - but without a true active cooling system, this is extremely difficult.
Not that the distinction between this and a meltdown is particularly significant - it just shows that, once again, you don't know what you're talking about and should maybe let the grownups handle it instead of flapping your arms and throwing a temper tantrum.
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by 1.61803, posted 03-17-2011 3:23 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by 1.61803, posted 03-17-2011 4:11 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 127 by DBlevins, posted 03-18-2011 2:17 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 111 of 175 (609239)
03-17-2011 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Rahvin
03-17-2011 2:20 PM


...but as soon as the word "nuclear" gets brought up, we have a media feeding frenzy, and everybody brings up Chernobyl as if the plant's surrounding area is now a glassed desert right out of a Captain Planet episode?
I think people have this notion of Chernobyl as being this post-apocalyptic wasteland of crumbling concrete and barren soil; denuded, dead trees and brown mud everywhere.
And, yeah, a lot of Chernobyl looks like that - because it's in Russia. Everything looks like that!
As an aside - glassed deserts? You must have seen way better Captain Planet episodes than I did. All I remember from that show is the little brown kid whose totemic element is "the heart". What the fuck?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2011 2:20 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Son, posted 03-17-2011 4:25 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 112 of 175 (609240)
03-17-2011 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by 1.61803
03-17-2011 2:41 PM


Re: pretty
very pretty, now go have a picnic there.
You think that grass mowed itself, maybe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by 1.61803, posted 03-17-2011 2:41 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by 1.61803, posted 03-17-2011 4:15 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 113 of 175 (609241)
03-17-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Rahvin
03-17-2011 3:38 PM


Re: Wrong.
Hi Rahvin, I already said I am not a expert. I already said I am not a nuclear academic. I already conceded that your mention of how minor the death toll of chernobly was and how even in the face of hundreds of thousands killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. By willful use of nuclear power,
Hitler still managed to instutute geneocide. And Kill More people than was killed by H bombs.
Hypocracy and fear are common place. Yes there are a great many things that pose a far greater risk than nuclear power does. I also admit I do not know how a nuclear plant works.
All I know is this, there are multiple nuclear meltdowns in progress for what ever reasons. There is a potential for loss of life and contamination on a wide scale. I am aware of the longevity of radioactive contamination, and the waste that is produced. Because I am aware of how lacks cornercutting bueracracies and corporations can ram shit through. I am thankful I live in America. Thank goodness for paranoid hippies. Otherwise there would be a corporate run nuclear plant in every city in America run with the same feckless attitudes as those on the deepwater horizon oil rig. Regardless of the emergency it seems the same attitudes and placation always seems to takes place, "this is a isolated incident." "This is a perfect storm"...etc.. well I call bull shit. The reason people are afraid of nuclear plants is well founded. They are dangerous. If they were not then wtf is going on in Japan. I assure you it isnt Godzilla.
I am not against nuclear power. I just wish more would be done to build up wind/solar and other such infrastructures. I do fear the poliferation of nuclear plants all over the U.S. This recent tragedy is not helping my fears.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2011 3:38 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by fearandloathing, posted 03-17-2011 4:32 PM 1.61803 has not replied
 Message 118 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2011 5:05 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 114 of 175 (609242)
03-17-2011 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by crashfrog
03-17-2011 4:03 PM


Re: pretty
Crashfrog writes:
You think that grass mowed itself, maybe?
No some poor irradiated sterile gardener did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by crashfrog, posted 03-17-2011 4:03 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3906 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 115 of 175 (609243)
03-17-2011 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by crashfrog
03-17-2011 4:02 PM


Small nitpick: actually Chernobyl is in Ukraine, though at the time of the accident, Ukraine was part of the USSR (I guess it's where the confusion is coming from).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by crashfrog, posted 03-17-2011 4:02 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by crashfrog, posted 03-17-2011 8:16 PM Son has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4221 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 116 of 175 (609244)
03-17-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by 1.61803
03-17-2011 4:11 PM


Re: Wrong.
1.61803 writes:
Hi Rahvin, I already said I am not a expert. I already said I am not a nuclear academic. I already conceded that your mention of how minor the death toll of chernobly was and how even in the face of hundreds of thousands killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. By willful use of nuclear power,
Hitler still managed to instutute geneocide. And Kill More people than was killed by H bombs.
Hypocracy and fear are common place. Yes there are a great many things that pose a far greater risk than nuclear power does. I also admit I do not know how a nuclear plant works.
All I know is this, there are multiple nuclear meltdowns in progress for what ever reasons. There is a potential for loss of life and contamination on a wide scale. I am aware of the longevity of radioactive contamination, and the waste that is produced. Because I am aware of how lacks cornercutting bueracracies and corporations can ram shit through. I am thankful I live in America. Thank goodness for paranoid hippies. Otherwise there would be a corporate run nuclear plant in every city in America run with the same feckless attitudes as those on the deepwater horizon oil rig. Regardless of the emergency it seems the same attitudes and placation always seems to takes place, "this is a isolated incident." "This is a perfect storm"...etc.. well I call bull shit. The reason people are afraid of nuclear plants is well founded. They are dangerous. If they were not then wtf is going on in Japan. I assure you it isnt Godzilla.
I am not against nuclear power. I just wish more would be done to build up wind/solar and other such infrastructures. I do fear the poliferation of nuclear plants all over the U.S. This recent tragedy is not helping my fears.
All the more reason to learn. Do you have a plan for any emergency?Please don't get me wrong I am not trying to do anything except make you think.
I have a backpack with all I deem necessary to walk away and have a better chance of survival in most any situation that I feel may arise in my area. I enjoy backpacking and many other outdoors activities, hunting, fishing and these skills are good to know, if you don't have them then let me recommend a few books to place in your bug-out bag. How To Stay Alive in the WOODS, US army field manual on survival. If you can you should also be ready to stay put, have a good store of dried foods, water ect...least 10 days worth...30 would be better.
Extra meds if you take prescriptions, talk to your doc, most will give you what you want as long as it isn't a narcotic or Valium ect...
Suitable clothing in your pack...not too much as it takes up space...You can get a full CBRN suit pretty cheap if you want to be real prepared, I live near lot of military and got mine, mask and all less than 200 bucks.
You see where I am going though...be prepared for as much as you can...Don't depend on the govt to be there right away...its best to be proactive when it comes to your survival. Help may never come.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by 1.61803, posted 03-17-2011 4:11 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34046
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


(2)
Message 117 of 175 (609245)
03-17-2011 4:44 PM


Just a note on risk assesment
What happened in Japan is tragic.
But for the folk suffering through this disaster the loss of power, loss of communications, loss of shelter, damage to roads that limit resources being deployed, the results of the earthquake and tsunami so far exceed any possible additional risk from the nuclear power stations as to make them seem irrelevant.
I addition, it is not nuclear power that was the cause of that small additional risk, it was the earthquake, the tsunami and the problems they caused that limit response and control even now.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 118 of 175 (609246)
03-17-2011 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by 1.61803
03-17-2011 4:11 PM


Re: Wrong.
and how even in the face of hundreds of thousands killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. By willful use of nuclear power,
Hitler still managed to instutute geneocide. And Kill More people than was killed by H bombs.
Do you even have any idea how many things in this single secion are wrong?!
1) Nuclear weapons are not in any way applicable to a discussion on nuclear power, any more than fuel-air explosives like MOABs are relevant to a discussion on fossil fueled automobiles. Nuclear weapons produce completely different effects, beginning with the obvious fact that the reaction is faster and so produces a massive shockwave and radiation spike as opposed to the slow, drawn-out but non-explosive nature of a nuclear reactor incident. They also produce different radiation profiles, with nuclear weapons dispersing by far the majority of their radioactive particulates into the upper atmosphere, and containing far less material than a nuclear reactor in the first place, while a reactor isn't explosive enough to disperse material into the upper atmosphere and has a lot more material to disperse. They just are not in any way similar and bringing up one in a discussion of the other is just silly.
2) Neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were H-bombs. An H-bomb uses a fusion reaction, typically started by a small scale fission reaction to get the necessary temperature and pressure to initiate Hydrogen fusion. Fusion does not produce anywhere near the same level of radioactive particulate matter that Uranium and Plutonium fission weapons, like those used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, do. They're also orders of magnitude more powerful, and so they are largely what comprises modern nuclear weapons. Of course, no H-bomb has ever, even once been used in time of war, so no H-bomb has ever killed anyone despite their destructive power.
3) If you wanted to make a casualty comparison that wasn't a total red herring when discussing nuclear weapons, you should have compared the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki to various allied firebombing attacks that destroyed entire cities, and simply took more bombs and planes to get a similar result. Of course, nuclear weapons are still a complete non sequitur when talking about nuclear power. Hitler, of course, had nothing to do with anything at all in this conversation, even in a risk assessment.
For the love of rational thought, please actually read through my posts before you reply to them, and pretty pretty please go read a fucking book or at least a Wiki article.
Your current level of knowledge regarding nuclear power is roughly akin to someone who learned about evolution through the X-Men and the Teenage Mutant Ninja goddamned Turtles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by 1.61803, posted 03-17-2011 4:11 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by 1.61803, posted 03-17-2011 5:36 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 119 of 175 (609248)
03-17-2011 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Rahvin
03-17-2011 5:05 PM


Re: Wrong.
Rahvin writes:
1) Nuclear weapons are not in any way applicable to a discussion on nuclear power.
Why not both are capable of producing radio active fall out and waste contamination. But my point was even the willful use of nuclear power did not kill as many as ..hmmm for instance Hitler.
Rahvin writes:
2) Neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were H-bombs.
tomato, tomaaato. Still both nuclear weapons capable of killing lots of people. But thanks for the correction, my bad.
Rahvin writes:
3. Hitler, of course, had nothing to do with anything at all in this conversation, even in a risk assessment.
My point was that there are things that kill far more people other than nuclear power. A point you yourself kept making.
Your pointing out my inaccuracies in the difference between a H bomb and atomic bomb are superfulous. I guess I should of used a generic term like nuclear weapon then again what do I care if you correct me. Gives you some sense of smugness does it? Yet still remains empty. in other words you know what I meant, right? But yet I sense hositlity and anger. Why?
Rhavin writes:
For the love of rational thought, please actually read through my posts before you reply to them, and pretty pretty please go read a fucking book or at least a Wiki article
My are you butt hurt over something? If you go back to THE Post that YOU responded to ME. I did not respond to any post of yours. Are you even paying attention? Its not that hard, It is all in print right in front of you. Do any of your 2725 not make you seem like a selfabsorbed egoist fucktard? Don't bother answering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Rahvin, posted 03-17-2011 5:05 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by crashfrog, posted 03-17-2011 8:40 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4221 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


(1)
Message 120 of 175 (609249)
03-17-2011 5:41 PM


Mankind has a tendency to push the envelope, but we learn from our mistakes for the most part.
Take our space program, after Apollo 1 burned on the pad, Should we have quit? After Challenger? Both were cases where we acted upon what we thought were acceptable risk. WE were wrong and we learned from them and as a result we went to moon, and built an international space station. We didn't condemn the space program because of failures. We learned from them and made spaceflight safer. More will die, and we will learn from it.
Ad astra per aspera
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

  
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