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Author Topic:   Confusing mice with mousetraps
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 61 of 90 (190048)
03-04-2005 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by crashfrog
03-04-2005 11:49 AM


I did misunderstand. My apologies. Looking back on the thread I don't exactly see why everybody's all up in your face.
Thanks Crashfrog.
Your avatatr, name and posting style match perfectly.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 62 of 90 (190051)
03-04-2005 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Loudmouth
03-04-2005 11:57 AM


Re: BUT it's sooo obvious that it is not obvious!
We can't prove that humans did NOT make OMotM. However, we have no proof that humans did and the OMotM could have easily been produced by natural weathering. I think this is what you have been trying to say all along. Earlier I was just saying that humans are capable of making objects that look like they were naturally made so it is impossible to rule out human design.
We see the process of weathering in action. We know that this process produces many types of shapes. We see a face in the mountain because we have an in-born ability for face recognition.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Loudmouth, posted 03-04-2005 1:26 PM tsig has replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 63 of 90 (190058)
03-04-2005 1:24 PM


If ID is correct could god have designed and created the universe a split second ago with all memories and objects in place as they are? Doesn't the logic of ID permit this?

Replies to this message:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 90 (190059)
03-04-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by tsig
03-04-2005 12:48 PM


Re: BUT it's sooo obvious that it is not obvious!
quote:
We see the process of weathering in action. We know that this process produces many types of shapes. . .
. . ., some of which can resemble human faces.
quote:
We see a face in the mountain because we have an in-born ability for face recognition.
Yep, totally agree (after my little edit). Humans instinctually see faces where there are no faces. It is hardwired into our brain. More general pattern recognition occurs through hardwiring as well, but through a different part of the brain than face recognition. This is the problem that ID faces, the instinctual basis for pattern recognition.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 65 of 90 (190094)
03-04-2005 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Loudmouth
03-04-2005 1:26 PM


Re: BUT it's sooo obvious that it is not obvious!
Yep, totally agree (after my little edit). Humans instinctually see faces where there are no faces. It is hardwired into our brain. More general pattern recognition occurs through hardwiring as well, but through a different part of the brain than face recognition. This is the problem that ID faces, the instinctual basis for pattern recognition.
And this pattern recognition ability is what plays the IDers wrong when they claim to see ID in living creatures.
Thanks for the edit. Sometimes I switch from my normal brief mode to Superbrief and someting gets lostin the translation.
edited to add Thanks.
This message has been edited by DHA, 03-04-2005 17:07 AM

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 66 of 90 (190124)
03-04-2005 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by mick
03-04-2005 1:24 PM


welcome m
welcome to the fray.
m writes:
... created the universe a split second ago ...
solipsism fits any religion as a last gasp answer.
btw if you look you will see there are two kinds of reply buttons: one at the end of all the posts that makes a general reply (like your post) and one at the lower right hand corner of every post that makes a reply specifically to that post (like this one). you can set your preferences to get e-mails for replies to your posts and thus track a conversation interwoven through all the others.
you can also use the [peek] button to look at how other have formated or linked things.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 67 of 90 (190336)
03-06-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by mick
03-04-2005 1:24 PM


Everything a fantasy in god's mind?
If ID is correct could god have designed and created the universe a split second ago with all memories and objects in place as they are? Doesn't the logic of ID permit this?
Yes, but that would mean that god is a liar.
Your statement is a perfect example of why the idea of a god is self-contradicting.

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 Message 68 by Phat, posted 04-12-2005 3:42 AM tsig has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 90 (198446)
04-12-2005 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by tsig
03-06-2005 1:21 PM


Re: Everything a fantasy in god's mind?
DHA writes:
Yes, but that would mean that god is a liar.
Oh Come Now! How ever would we know? We have but scratched the surface on potential mysteries and scenarios.
BEYOND LOGIC!

"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives."-- Anne Dillard
"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive."
Elbert Hubbard

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 69 of 90 (198478)
04-12-2005 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tsig
02-23-2005 1:14 AM


I think you are right about a major hole at the
heart of ID, but think you may be wrong about what that
hole is.
It's not so much that living and non-living things are
radically or fundamentally different, but that there are NO
established criteria for detection of design that stand up
to any scrutiny.
Sorry to jump in late on this (I have read through most of the
thread).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tsig, posted 02-23-2005 1:14 AM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by tsig, posted 04-13-2005 7:25 AM Peter has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 70 of 90 (198885)
04-13-2005 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Peter
04-12-2005 6:33 AM


Design Detection
It's not so much that living and non-living things are
radically or fundamentally different, but that there are NO
established criteria for detection of design that stand up
to any scrutiny.
What are the similarities beween living and non-living matter?
To detect design you need to know something about the designer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Peter, posted 04-12-2005 6:33 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Peter, posted 04-29-2005 8:17 AM tsig has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 71 of 90 (198886)
04-13-2005 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
04-12-2005 3:42 AM


Re: Everything a fantasy in god's mind?
BEYOND LOGIC!
And when you get beyond logic, what will you do when ILLOGIC turns on you and all the rules LOGIC has raised are down? (quote parapharased from Man for All Seasons)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 04-16-2005 11:35 AM tsig has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 72 of 90 (199715)
04-16-2005 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
04-12-2005 3:42 AM


Re: Everything a fantasy in god's mind?
bump

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 90 (199754)
04-16-2005 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by tsig
04-13-2005 7:31 AM


Re: Everything a fantasy in god's mind?
DHA writes:
And when you get beyond logic, what will you do when ILLOGIC turns on you and all the rules LOGIC has raised are down? (quote parapharased from Man for All Seasons)
Whats a theist supposed to say? According to your logic, you exist for a miniscule sum of time on a dust speck of a planet in a somewhat rare solar system (so far as logic has currently informed us) within one of a hundred billion galaxies. Despite being so insignificant in the grand scheme of things, you think it better to try and arrive at lifes conclusions without any help from any sort of a Creator whom could exist!
What is really odd about the human nature of it all is that were a lone alien species ever to pop into your human world, the chances are that you and the rest of the "logical" minds would probably run to embrace and study such a mathematical unknown!
And yet....
There exists (in my belief) an unseen spiritual realm of unknown origin and motive around us as we think. The Holy Spirit is there too, and He patiently awaits our acknowledgement and acceptence.
Yet humanity, in all of our quirkiness and ill placed arrogance, brushes off any communion with this loving Creator!
We would rather peer through our puny telescopes and microscopes that we have invented and attempt to go it alone...bringing our insignificant species into the destiny that WE..somehow...have imagined for ourselves!
There is a time for a child to grow up and tie their own shoes, and yet there is alao a time for a son or daughter to realize that truly their old man knew what he was talking about all along!
Is a cosmic "old man" so illogical?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by tsig, posted 04-13-2005 7:31 AM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 74 of 90 (199783)
04-16-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
04-16-2005 11:35 AM


Thanks for the reply.
We're getting pretty far into the woods as far as the topic is concerned. Maybe a new thread?

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 75 of 90 (203604)
04-29-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by tsig
04-13-2005 7:25 AM


Re: Design Detection
All built of the same 'stuff', subject to the
same 'laws' of chemistry and physics ... they kinda
just exist and do what their chemistry demands.
Knowing about the designer isn't detecting design. It's
knowing that something was designed.
I doubt there IS any way of detecting design 'by inspection'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by tsig, posted 04-13-2005 7:25 AM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by tsig, posted 04-30-2005 6:30 PM Peter has replied

  
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