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Author Topic:   Life without God
Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 31 of 85 (608609)
03-11-2011 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Artemis Entreri
03-10-2011 7:36 PM


Re: Well spoken but at least partially wasted
Artemis Entreri writes:
The Dude Abides.
Well, anyone who quotes from The Big Lebowski is allright in my book, even if we do walk different paths
(for the sake of my reputation, I must add that your comments in the Thuglican thread are disgraceful lol)
Edited by Briterican, : disclaimer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-10-2011 7:36 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 85 (608655)
03-12-2011 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by GDR
03-11-2011 3:35 PM


Re: Not convinced
GDR writes:
I hesitate in posting this as I seem to keep winding up in debates, (when all I really want is a discussion),in which I feel completely unqualified to debate. We all have our beliefs and I can’t imagine that I’ll change yours, or anyone else for that matter. Also as being someone who has no doubt that I don't have all my ducks in a row I don't want to sound preachy, but I thought I'd post a couple of my thoughts after reading this thread and the thread on deconversion.
If I could sit down over a beer with you there are a few questions I would like to ask about your so called deconversion. It seems your background in the church has been evangelical. Personally I would describe myself as an evangelical who has a considerable problem with the theology and actions of many of those who would describe themselves in the same way.
It seems to me that the evangelical church so often, particularly in North America, desperately tries turning the Bible into something that it is not intended to be. It is not an equal to the members of the trinity. People like to have something that gives them definitive guidelines, or a set of laws and regulations so that they can have certainty in their lives. Certainly it has some of that in it but I believe that it is a lot more than that. I think that the Bible is the story of God’s people and His relationship with them. However it is the story of people with all their strengths and weaknesses and readers of the Bible should, IMHO, understand that.
For example from Leviticus Chap 20:
quote:
10 ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wifewith the wife of his neighborboth the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
Now compare this from John Chap 8
quote:
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say? 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?
11 No one, sir, she said.
Then neither do I condemn you, Jesus declared. Go now and leave your life of sin.
Or how about this from Deuteronomy 21:
quote:
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard. 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Compare that to the story of the Good Samaritan
The book of Acts tells the story of the early Christian church. The Christian church did not stop growing after that book was written. The history of both the early Jews and the Christian church is full of abuse and error but we have been given both tradition reason and revelation to sort out, over time, what is of God and what comes from self interest and self promotion.
It certainly seems to appear that we have evolved physically over a period of time and it appears to me that in a very similar manner we are evolving spiritually over time.
Frankly the god that many Christians seem to believe in is a god that I wouldn’t believe in either. I’m not at all inclined to worship a God that advocates stoning to death people who are guilty of blasphemy, but I have more than happy to worship a god that desires restorative justice for all. The question then becomes does such a god exist, and we have come to different conclusions.
I have no idea of whether or not God led you to your wallet although my inclination is that you are just very fortunate, but in either case if it had been me I would still give thanks as I believe I am a created being who lives in a world where finding the wallet was possible.
I don’t know on what basis you rejected your faith. It is my view, rightly or wrongly, that when people look at the condition of the church and the cold and dead theology that is sometimes taught, they may well be closer to the heart of God after leaving the church than they were before.
I know I keep repeating this verse from Micah but it is my contention that it simply states what is at the very heart of Christianity.
quote:
Micah 6:8: He has told you, O man what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God.
I think that all of us here can agree that humility, justice and kindness are something we should all strive for and I’m pretty sure that didn’t change for you after you left the church.
Hi GDR. Apostates and believers alike appear to be confused about the seeming contradictions of scripture that you have itemized above.
What you/they are not understanding is that the OT laws were necessary for Jehovah to establish a particular people and nation to comprise his eventual kingdom on earth. These stringent laws were imposed upon one tiny nation of people to preserve them as the messianic nation prophesied to come on earth.
These laws weeded out the element of this people which would hinder limit their endurance. This people were scattered world wide due to their disobedience. The amazing phenomena of their return and restoration as an identifiable nation is partly due to the fact that they, for the most part are uniquely more intelligent and more endurable than the average Joe. Thus, their survival as a tiny island in the midst of a host of enemies in the Middle East.
Bottom line: the laws were not intended for the other nations or for the new dispensation of the church age, i.e. the NT times.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 03-11-2011 3:35 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 03-12-2011 12:53 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 33 of 85 (608673)
03-12-2011 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
03-12-2011 9:15 AM


Re: Not convinced
Buzsaw writes:
Hi GDR. Apostates and believers alike appear to be confused about the seeming contradictions of scripture that you have itemized above.
What you/they are not understanding is that the OT laws were necessary for Jehovah to establish a particular people and nation to comprise his eventual kingdom on earth. These stringent laws were imposed upon one tiny nation of people to preserve them as the messianic nation prophesied to come on earth.
These laws weeded out the element of this people which would hinder limit their endurance. This people were scattered world wide due to their disobedience. The amazing phenomena of their return and restoration as an identifiable nation is partly due to the fact that they, for the most part are uniquely more intelligent and more endurable than the average Joe. Thus, their survival as a tiny island in the midst of a host of enemies in the Middle East.
Bottom line: the laws were not intended for the other nations or for the new dispensation of the church age, i.e. the NT times.
Hi Buz
My belief is that God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Your view seems to suggest that God adjusts his morality based on the nature of His people. It does seem to me that God is above situational ethics.
I also contend that the seeming contradictions in the Bible, (although I would argue that they are real contradictions) have people confused. I suggest that the reason for the confusion is that people like yourself are trying to turn the Bible into something God never intended it to be. It is not a magic rule book but the story of God breaking into this world starting with His chosen people — the Jews. Yes, the Jews were meant to stand out as God’s chosen people to bring God’s message to the world. However, they were supposed to stand out by living out the Ten Commandments. More than that they were meant to stand out against the pagan nations around them with their love for God and neighbour. However, just like the church today, the Jews were more often than not influenced by the culture(s) around them. Do you really believe that God at any time in history would want His chosen people to act in this manner that I’ll re-quote from Deuteronomy 21.
quote:
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard. 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Do you honestly believe that the God that we worship through the lens of Jesus would ever at any time in human history want a father and mother to do to his son what is described in that verse. Frankly, if you can justify God doing that then we worship very different Gods.
If however, we see that as being in the Bible because God wants us to actually use the reason and wisdom that he has given us to sort out what is of God and what comes from the culture around us, or from self-interest, then it makes sense. God has given us a Bible that demonstrates what happens when we misuse the gift of free-will. The Bible was not meant to be used as a book to control us and put us all into little boxes. It is meant to be the first part of the narrative of how God first revealed himself to His people and how they used and misused the revelation that they had been given. The Bible is not the 4th member of the Trinity. He has given us free will and we continually seem to more often than not worship at the altar of the love of self.
The problem of the church not adhering to God’s message of love and forgiveness hardly ended with the death and resurrection of Jesus. If the story of the church since then was chronicled it wouldn’t look much if any better than the OT stories. I somehow don’t think that God is much impressed with the prosperity gospel for example.
It is my view that the Bible is a gift from God given to us so that have a record of His revelation to us and a record of the pitfalls of man ignoring or misusing the gifts of that we have been given. More than that, He has also given us the gift of his son which gives us a lens filtered through love, kindness, mercy, justice, truth and forgiveness, with which we can know how we are to interact with the world around us both in the church and outside of it.
Thanks be to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 03-12-2011 9:15 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 03-12-2011 3:40 PM GDR has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 85 (608689)
03-12-2011 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by GDR
03-12-2011 12:53 PM


Re: Not convinced
GDR writes:
My belief is that God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. Your view seems to suggest that God adjusts his morality based on the nature of His people. It does seem to me that God is above situational ethics.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He's always had different strokes for different folks, so to speak. He's always operated with different dispensations of time. The Levitical Law was given to Moses for the Jews who were to be a chosen messianic nation.
Jesus, messiah, came in a time dispensation of grace when he would become the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of all mankind, both Jews and Gentile, not under the Levitical law, as explained by Paul and other apostles.
A coming dispensation of the messianic kingdom of God on earth via his son Jesus, messiah has been prophesied by Jesus and the OT prophets to emerge in the last days of the Gentile age. Jesus prophesies about this in Luke 21:24, as follows:
quote:
.........and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
GDR writes:
I also contend that the seeming contradictions in the Bible, (although I would argue that they are real contradictions) have people confused. I suggest that the reason for the confusion is that people like yourself are trying to turn the Bible into something God never intended it to be. It is not a magic rule book but the story of God breaking into this world starting with His chosen people — the Jews. Yes, the Jews were meant to stand out as God’s chosen people to bring God’s message to the world. However, they were supposed to stand out by living out the Ten Commandments. More than that they were meant to stand out against the pagan nations around them with their love for God and neighbour. However, just like the church today, the Jews were more often than not influenced by the culture(s) around them. Do you really believe that God at any time in history would want His chosen people to act in this manner that I’ll re-quote from Deuteronomy 21.
quote:
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard. 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
As cruel and unusual as this punishment is, it did indeed weed out rebellious and lawless members of the tiny chosen messianic people who were being groomed purposefully for this unique role on planet earth.
An analogy to the above might be West Point, where my son endured treatment (the last year severe hazing was implemented), which would have been considered cruel and unusual, even for the inmates of Guantanamo today. My son still lives with an injury sustained when a rifle butt was jammed into his chest at West Point. Had he complained he would have been deemed a wimp. Nevertheless, over the decades, West Pointers have done exploits for the US Army, due to the stringent policies designated for this unit for a specific purpose.
GDR writes:
Do you honestly believe that the God that we worship through the lens of Jesus would ever at any time in human history want a father and mother to do to his son what is described in that verse. Frankly, if you can justify God doing that then we worship very different Gods.
.
The same Jehovah who implemented this stringent policy for a unique tiny nation for a limited designated time, sent his only born son to planet earth to be subjected to cruel persecution and death on the cross for the sins of the world, the innocent sacrificial lamb paying the sin death penalty for all humanity, as proclaimed to Adam in Genesis when he said, something like, "the day you sin you shall die."
GDR writes:
If however, we see that as being in the Bible because God wants us to actually use the reason and wisdom that he has given us to sort out what is of God and what comes from the culture around us, or from self-interest, then it makes sense. God has given us a Bible that demonstrates what happens when we misuse the gift of free-will. The Bible was not meant to be used as a book to control us and put us all into little boxes. It is meant to be the first part of the narrative of how God first revealed himself to His people and how they used and misused the revelation that they had been given. The Bible is not the 4th member of the Trinity. He has given us free will and we continually seem to more often than not worship at the altar of the love of self.
You need to read Psalms 119; all of it, which says things like, "Thy word is a lamp to my feet and the path to life."
One of the Ten Commandments is "children obey your parents."
Bottom line: God's Levitical commandment was for OT Jews who, after numerous admonishments and warnings could not control rebellious children were to stone them. That law was never intended for others. Nevertheless, for sure, lawless and rebellious sons were a rarity in OT Jewish cultures.
Though we may not see things alike, it's nice to know that you are a brother or sister in Christ.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 03-12-2011 12:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 03-12-2011 9:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 85 (608716)
03-12-2011 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
03-12-2011 3:40 PM


Re: Not convinced
Buzsaw writes:
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He's always had different strokes for different folks, so to speak. He's always operated with different dispensations of time. The Levitical Law was given to Moses for the Jews who were to be a chosen messianic nation.
Jesus, messiah, came in a time dispensation of grace when he would become the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of all mankind, both Jews and Gentile, not under the Levitical law, as explained by Paul and other apostles.
I don't disagree that God works in us in time but that is not the same as believing that he would tell one group of people that it is ok to have their children stoned to death by everyone in the town and then a few hundred years later tell another group that what He really desires is forgiveness. However it isn't necessary to wait until the time of Jesus to get that message.
Here is another quote from Leviticus 6. (The old covenant)
quote:
1 [a]The LORD said to Moses: 2 If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the LORD by deceiving a neighbor about something entrusted to them or left in their care or about something stolen, or if they cheat their neighbor, 3 or if they find lost property and lie about it, or if they swear falsely about any such sin that people may commitX 4 when they sin in any of these ways and realize their guilt, they must return what they have stolen or taken by extortion, or what was entrusted to them, or the lost property they found, 5 or whatever it was they swore falsely about. They must make restitution in full, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the owner on the day they present their guilt offering. 6 And as a penalty they must bring to the priest, that is, to the LORD, their guilt offering, a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. 7 In this way the priest will make atonement for them before the LORD, and they will be forgiven for any of the things they did that made them guilty.
God's message of forgiveness can always be found in the OT. Why would he have somebody's son stoned to death for standing up to their parents, (who could very well be in the wrong in the first place), and then provide a means of forgiveness for other transgressions? It makes no sense. Either God is a god of love and forgiveness or he is a god of vengeance. You keep trying to have it both ways and it can't be done. The vengeful god is a reflection of the various pagan religions that the Jews were surrounded by, which they allowed to creep into their own beliefs. It is in the Bible because we are to learn from their mistakes. When Jesus taught us how to pray He said that we will be forgiven as we forgive. I think that is a message that we can carry with us and believe that it is a truth for all time.
Buzsaw writes:
As cruel and unusual as this punishment is, it did indeed weed out rebellious and lawless members of the tiny chosen messianic people who were being groomed purposefully for this unique role on planet earth.
An analogy to the above might be West Point, where my son endured treatment (the last year severe hazing was implemented), which would have been considered cruel and unusual, even for the inmates of Guantanamo today. My son still lives with an injury sustained when a rifle butt was jammed into his chest at West Point. Had he complained he would have been deemed a wimp. Nevertheless, over the decades, West Pointers have done exploits for the US Army, due to the stringent policies designated for this unit for a specific purpose.
Can I humbly suggest Buzsaw that you are doing here what I contend that the early Jews did when they came up with the idea of having the town stone their kids to death. They and you are taking the culture and trying to fit God into it. In other words, instead of allowing God to mould us into His image they were trying to mould Him into their image. It's what we all do to one degree or another all the time. I somehow don't think that because they have a particular mind set designed to achieve a specific purpose at West Point that we should assume that God should use a similar method to achieve his purposes.
Buzsaw writes:
You need to read Psalms 119; all of it, which says things like, "Thy word is a lamp to my feet and the path to life."
Couldn't you have picked a shorter Psalm as a reading assignment?
The book of John starts off like this:
quote:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
It is fine to throw around the term the "word of God but the Bible itself is very clear that it is Jesus that is the word. The authority of scripture is only what God designates to it and not what any human decides it is.
I would also point out that in verse 34 in Psalm 119 the writer prays: Give me understanding, and I will keep your law God has not, IMHO, given us a book which has everything in black and white but a book that we need to prayerfully read with wisdom and understanding so that what he wants of us will be written on our hearts.
In addition when the psalmist talks about following God's word to what do you think he was referring? The canon of scripture didn't exist at that time.
I just go back to what we are told in the book of Micah and that is what God wants of us is to humbly love kindness and do justice. That is from the old covenant and having their kids stoned to death because we don't think that they were obedient enough just doesn't fill the bill.
God inspired people to write down the record of His people and His relationship with them. We are now to take that book and learn from it and the lesson here is that we are not to allow the various world cultures to distort God's message of forgiveness, love, mercy, truth and justice in our own lives and in the life of His church.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Buzsaw, posted 03-12-2011 3:40 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 03-12-2011 10:29 PM GDR has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 85 (608720)
03-12-2011 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by GDR
03-12-2011 9:35 PM


Re: Not convinced
GDR writes:
Why would he have somebody's son stoned to death for standing up to their parents, (who could very well be in the wrong in the first place), and then provide a means of forgiveness for other transgressions?
Are you implying that he didn't do it or that he was unjust for doing it? Which is it? I've explained the whys and wherefores. If that doesn't satisfy you, I guess you'll have to ask God. If the scripture that says he did it and you think it is nonsense, how can you accept any of it? It's either all reliable or it's a fraudulent record. You'll have to make your own mind up. As for me, it's proven itself 100% reliable for 65 years since my conversion.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 03-12-2011 9:35 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by GDR, posted 03-13-2011 3:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 37 of 85 (608728)
03-13-2011 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Buzsaw
03-12-2011 10:29 PM


Re: Not convinced
Buzsaw writes:
Are you implying that he didn't do it or that he was unjust for doing it? Which is it? I've explained the whys and wherefores. If that doesn't satisfy you, I guess you'll have to ask God. If the scripture that says he did it and you think it is nonsense, how can you accept any of it? It's either all reliable or it's a fraudulent record. You'll have to make your own mind up. As for me, it's proven itself 100% reliable for 65 years since my conversion.
The Bible is reliable. It is a reliable record of God's people as told by those that were inspired to record it. Included in that record is the things that they got right as well as the things that they got wrong. God has given us free will along with the reason, understanding and the Holy Spirit so that we can discern what is of God and what isn't.
What God is looking for in us is loving, kind justice seeking hearts. Having the whole town stone anybody to death is obviously going to harden the hearts of everybody involved accomplishing exactly the opposite of what God wants.
This is a case where they got it wrong but kept the record of their thinking accurately. If we understand it that way the Bible makes complete sense and with wisdom we can use the Bible to sort out what is God's will and what isn't. Human reason is a gift from God just as is the Bible. God didn't give us the Bible so that we could blank out reason. Reason and scripture are complimentary gifts and we should use all of the gifts given to us.
The Bible in context is clear about one thing in particular. We have a God who loves us. The god that is described in that passage from Deuteronomy is not the God that you and I worship. That god is a god of human imagination modelling the pagan gods of the dominant cultures of the time. We are meant to read that with the understanding that we are not to allow the other gods in our own cultures, (such as love of money and power), to take over our own lives today.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 03-12-2011 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 38 of 85 (608763)
03-13-2011 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
03-08-2011 6:44 PM


cavediver writes:
It was precisely this pathetic intercessory prayer that helped with my deconversion: if I really believed there was a deity willing and able to materially affect reality on the back of my prayers, how could I live with myself if I did not spend every moment of my life praying for the uncountable situations of sorrow and suffering occuring at every moment around the world?
This seems a little elemental, cavediver, the conclusion of a child (in the immature sense of the word)-like faith. Jesus said to ask for anything in his name and it would be done yet the mature Christian isn't at all surprised when the things he prays for don't pan out in the way/timescales envisaged/desired
That self-same Christian would also be mindful of Jesus' not prioritising the suffering of others over all else - the poor we shall always have with us. The commandment allows us to love ourselves as well as others.
To relate to God isn't to approach him one-armed-bandit-like with a shopping list of stuff he can do for you. I'm sure he's as glad as you are that you deconverted from whatever model of God you had going there.
-
I was smiling all the way back to the house, where-as the couple in the dark car, parked up on the field, were almost certainly thinking "what a dick"...
I'm sure their focus was on a different dick to you.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 03-08-2011 6:44 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by cavediver, posted 03-13-2011 4:39 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 85 (608764)
03-13-2011 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
03-08-2011 6:44 PM


It's good to throw God away.
Sounds like you are doing well and I applaud your actions. It's very good to throw God away, particularly the God that so many Christians try to sell. When you see comments like "That self-same Christian would also be mindful of Jesus' not prioritising the suffering of others over all else - the poor we shall always have with us. The commandment allows us to love ourselves as well as others." it is a dead give away that the God being marketed is something to not just throw away, but to revile and oppose.
Such a God is vile, evil, disgusting, abhorrent.
Keep questioning. Throw them Gods away when they crop up, speak out against such Gods and help others free themselves from such influence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 03-08-2011 6:44 PM cavediver has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 40 of 85 (608778)
03-13-2011 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by iano
03-13-2011 2:15 PM


Jesus said to ask for anything in his name and it would be done yet the mature Christian isn't at all surprised when the things he prays for don't pan out in the way/timescales envisaged/desired
So? Where did I express that I was disappointed in the outcome? I was stressing that the needs of the world should justify a 24/7 attitude to intercessory prayer. Where did I make any comment regarding the outcome of that prayer?
This seems a little elemental, cavediver, the conclusion of a child (in the immature sense of the word)-like faith.
yep, it has to you because it is the only way you will ever get away from the fact that the Christian god is a fucking waste of space, and Christians have to ensure they have a way to explain away the complete absence of this god's existence outside of their own headspace. Ensure that he is answering prayer on the timescale of natural occurance and all is fine
Iano, the whole evangelical Christian movement is designed around ensuring that this god's complete non-existence is completely explicable. Of we don't expect obvious and large-scale answers to prayer. This god does not exist.
To relate to God isn't to approach him one-armed-bandit-like with a shopping list of stuff he can do for you.
Yep, Iano, convince yourself that that is how I approached my concept of god. The lengths you guys will go to convince yourselves that "true" Christians don't deconvert. It is truly pathetic.
Us (as I was) born-again evangelical Christians would never think to approach God with a "shopping list" of our personal desires. But we do look at suffering around us and in amongst our daily conversations with our personal god, we do ask him to intercede, in his own way, in those situations.
Those "Christians" like you, that look around at suffering but simply regard it as part of the fallen world and unworthy of mention to your god, are known as wankers.
I'm sure he's as glad as you are that you deconverted from whatever model of God you had going there.
Yep, he doesn't have me troubling him anymore, reminding him of just how fucked up his world has become. I'm sure he's much happier hanging out with you in ignorance.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by iano, posted 03-13-2011 2:15 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-14-2011 6:08 PM cavediver has replied
 Message 49 by iano, posted 03-14-2011 7:41 PM cavediver has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 41 of 85 (608804)
03-13-2011 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
03-08-2011 6:44 PM


cavediver writes:
I was smiling all the way back to the house
Woot!! Well done!
Knowing you don't have waste several hours/days/weeks cancelling and re-obtaining the shit required to function within the rules these days... is a good feeling.
I recently temporarily moved (am building a house and *gasp* moved in with the parents for 4 months... 2 down, 2 to go... 4 too many...) and lost the passports for my wife and I. Finally went through piles of junk to find them... in "a safe place" tucked neatly into the bottom of a box that housed things I would... eventually... have unpacked into the nightstand by the bed.
That relief is one of the greatest feelings around
My first thought was to thank God. My second thought was to ask myself what I was doing. I stopped, wondering what to do. I had this overwhelming sense of gratitude, but suddenly I had nowhere to channel it; I could hardly be pleased with myself. It was all very very odd. Then slowly there formed this oxymoronic sense of fulfilled emptyness. The stars were shining, I raised my hands to the heavens, and shouted "everything just *IS* and I LOVE IT".
I've had similar experiences during my own deconversion. I wasn't as entrenched as you, though, so I doubt my experience was quite on the same level.
I do, however, now hardly even recognize the existance of any gods.
When I go through such things as knowing I've lost the passports, and freaking out about them... I'm basically thinking "well, I'm either going to find them, or not... and I really, really hope this is one of those times where I end up finding them..."
Is that hope any less than "I hope to God that I find them..."? Of course not. But it is... not the same Perhaps it's a better hope for me... more in tune with how I actually feel (perhaps how I've alreays really felt) anyway.
When I did find the passports, I just allowed myself to become fully imersed in the feeling of relief. It's nice to simply enjoy a feeling for what it is rather than to also think about devoting that feeling to some outside entity. Full immersion in such an intense emotion can be very spiritual. It is for me, anyway. Sort of like in Jerry McGuire... when the football guy gets knocked out in the end zone but comes too, but doesn't move yet... "Just... just let me enjoy this moment for a minute...." And then he gets up and dances around. Kinda like that, but more-so
if I really believed there was a deity willing and able to materially affect reality on the back of my prayers, how could I live with myself if I did not spend every moment of my life praying for the uncountable situations of sorrow and suffering occuring at every moment around the world?
For me, it was easiest to first discover who I was. Then, as I focused on getting my thoughts and beliefs to revolve around what I thought was right instead of what everyone else says was right... I realized that things made a lot more sense. And my life seemed a lot more... "aligned". Everything just started to fit.
We can only fight ourselves for so long. Sooner or later we have to do what we know is right and not what other people tell us "is right." What that is, and how it works for each of us is as different and varied as there are different and varied people in the world.
Glad to hear you seem to have found the path that fits you.
As Jar has said, keep looking for the path, and good journey to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 03-08-2011 6:44 PM cavediver has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 42 of 85 (608806)
03-13-2011 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Blue Jay
03-09-2011 10:59 AM


Bluejay writes:
I'm not yet at a stage where I can embrace the lack of divine orchestration in things: I still want to believe that there is something magical or special about my place in the universe. Particularly, the idea of death depresses me: I still want to believe that I will live forever, and that I will always have my wife and children with me.
"...at a stage where..."
Where, exactly, do you think you're heading?
If you do think you're heading towards atheism... are you sure you understand what atheism actually is?
You can believe there is something magical and special about your place in the universe, and be an atheist.
You can believe there is something magical and special about your place in the universe, and be a rational atheist.
You can believe that you will live forever, and always have your wife and children with you and be an atheist.
You can believe that you will live forever, and always have your wife and children with you and be a rational atheist.
Really, if you think that "beliefs" are ever rational, that is the only irrational thing I'm seeing.
Irrationality is not necessarily a bad thing.
Just because you have some irrationality as a part of your life does not make you an irrational person.
You are only an irrational person if you act as if the irrational parts of your life are actually "100% truth."
In actuality, for most people, it is very healthy to have irrational dreams, hopes, beliefs, desires... they can be extremely helpful and motivating. It only gets dangerous if you start to think they're something that they're not.
Maybe someday I'll be able to grow up and conquer the paranoia, but I'm not there yet
The way I see it, it's most important to figure out and do things the way you think they should be done, and not the way anyone tells you they should be done.
And, just remember... even the most rational, objective atheist has a favourite colour

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Blue Jay, posted 03-09-2011 10:59 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 43 of 85 (608846)
03-14-2011 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by cavediver
03-13-2011 4:39 PM


yep, it has to you because it is the only way you will ever get away from the fact that the Christian god is a fucking waste of space, and Christians have to ensure they have a way to explain away the complete absence of this god's existence outside of their own headspace. Ensure that he is answering prayer on the timescale of natural occurance and all is fine
I suppose the title of your thread and the irorny of your continual dwelling on the God question in this website and your life, is lost on a moron like yourself
here is a man (if I may be so bold) that has and does applaud himself of the fact that he has jettisoned God from his life, but it seems this is all he can continually think about. Such iorny
One wonders why a person that had so long ago discarded God would spend so much time talking about him
who are you trying to convince, us or yourself? You really are afraid to move on arent you?
If indeed God is a waste of time and space, only a ignorant moron would spend so much time talking about him.
So which are you a coward or a moron, moron. Or should I call you ole fence walker?
Quit being afraid to come back or get over it, coward
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by cavediver, posted 03-13-2011 4:39 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by cavediver, posted 03-14-2011 6:49 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 44 of 85 (608850)
03-14-2011 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dawn Bertot
03-14-2011 6:08 PM


Dawn, you are a sad waste of a life... come back when you've grown up a bit. We'll still be here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-14-2011 6:08 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-14-2011 7:27 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 45 of 85 (608857)
03-14-2011 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by GDR
03-11-2011 3:35 PM


Re: Not convinced
If I could sit down over a beer with you there are a few questions I would like to ask about your so called deconversion. It seems your background in the church has been evangelical. Personally I would describe myself as an evangelical who has a considerable problem with the theology and actions of many of those who would describe themselves in the same way.
Hi GDR, been a while since we've chatted. Yes, that was essentially my outlook for the few years leading up to my "deconversion".
the evangelical church... ...desperately tries turning the Bible into something that it is not intended to be. It is not an equal to the members of the trinity.
Yes, it is an interesting conundrum, where the real deity of Christianity becomes the Bible itself. There is this unfounded assumption (naive readings of Timothy not withstanding) that the Bible has divine properties, regardless of its blatent human authorship and redaction.
I think that the Bible is the story of God’s people and His relationship with them. However it is the story of people with all their strengths and weaknesses and readers of the Bible should, IMHO, understand that.
I think that is very healthy approach.
I don’t know on what basis you rejected your faith.
Simply that as I finally removed the last layers of inconsistency and obvious bullshit from the Christian god, I was left with a simple deist entity. I never had much use for such a concept: while a Christian I would often point out that I did not see a need for God to have the Universe, just that the simple fact was that we had both. And so here I am, back as an atheist as I was at age 13.
I think that all of us here can agree that humility, justice and kindness are something we should all strive for and I’m pretty sure that didn’t change for you after you left the church.
Well, I was never big on humility - but as Meatloaf so wisely said, two out of three ain't bad...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 03-11-2011 3:35 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by GDR, posted 03-15-2011 11:23 AM cavediver has not replied

  
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