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Author
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Topic: Our Socioeconomic Position is at Risk
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 181 of 197 (707132)
09-23-2013 10:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 180 by Jon
09-23-2013 8:04 PM
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Re: Are you willing to work to make change?
Why should they not just replace you, take your job?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 180 by Jon, posted 09-23-2013 8:04 PM | | Jon has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 184 by Jon, posted 09-24-2013 6:40 PM | | jar has replied |
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: 01-12-2008
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Message 182 of 197 (707133)
09-23-2013 10:56 PM
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Heinlein describes this perfectly...
The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a ‘warm body’ democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in the public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it which for the majority translates as ‘Bread and Circuses.’ ‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invaderthe barbarians enter Rome. Robert A. Heinlein, To Sail Beyond the Sunset pp. 226-227 (paperback) Edited by Coyote, : added author's full name
Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1526 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: 02-19-2004
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Hello FearandLoathing, I think you plan to focus on medical / healthcare facilities is a great strategy. As far as the middle class getting "squeezed" I feel it is inevitable. I pay more and more every year on my house payment due to increases in taxes and home insurance. Everytime I feel like I have a bit extra income, or find a way to save, something else takes a bite.
"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 184 of 197 (707217)
09-24-2013 6:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 181 by jar
09-23-2013 10:09 PM
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Re: Are you willing to work to make change?
Why should they not just replace you, take your job? If that's the world you want to live in. But in a country with wealth like ours there is really no reason for anyone to go unprovided for.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 181 by jar, posted 09-23-2013 10:09 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 185 by jar, posted 09-24-2013 6:49 PM | | Jon has replied | | | Message 187 by ringo, posted 09-25-2013 12:56 PM | | Jon has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 185 of 197 (707218)
09-24-2013 6:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 184 by Jon
09-24-2013 6:40 PM
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Re: Are you willing to work to make change?
It would not be an issue for me. The question hasn't been addressed by you though. Why should coming generations support those older than they are?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 184 by Jon, posted 09-24-2013 6:40 PM | | Jon has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 186 by Jon, posted 09-24-2013 6:51 PM | | jar has seen this message but not replied |
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 186 of 197 (707219)
09-24-2013 6:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 185 by jar
09-24-2013 6:49 PM
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Re: Are you willing to work to make change?
Why should coming generations support those older than they are? Because they can.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 185 by jar, posted 09-24-2013 6:49 PM | | jar has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 187 of 197 (707267)
09-25-2013 12:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 184 by Jon
09-24-2013 6:40 PM
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Re: Are you willing to work to make change?
Jon writes: Why should they not just replace you, take your job?
But in a country with wealth like ours there is really no reason for anyone to go unprovided for.
Those are two separate issues: Let the younger generation take Phat's job and then provide for Phat in some other way.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 184 by Jon, posted 09-24-2013 6:40 PM | | Jon has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 188 by Phat, posted 09-25-2013 1:30 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18308 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 188 of 197 (707269)
09-25-2013 1:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 187 by ringo
09-25-2013 12:56 PM
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Provision For Our Aging Workers
Well all I can say is that the word "provision" means foreseeing. Foresight. If we can all find a way to provide for me and other "me's" than I'll retire and let some young lad take my place. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 187 by ringo, posted 09-25-2013 12:56 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 193 by ringo, posted 09-26-2013 11:46 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 189 of 197 (707275)
09-25-2013 4:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 182 by Coyote
09-23-2013 10:56 PM
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Re: Heinlein describes this perfectly...
Coyotee writes: ‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure Well so far bread and circuses is working fine and all democracies are working better than any other method. Plus, Heinlein, wonderful writer though he is, was writing fiction. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 182 by Coyote, posted 09-23-2013 10:56 PM | | Coyote has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 195 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2013 9:08 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 190 of 197 (707288)
09-26-2013 2:25 AM
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Reply to: Message 182 by Coyote
09-23-2013 10:56 PM
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Re: Heinlein describes this perfectly...
The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a ‘warm body’ democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in the public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it which for the majority translates as ‘Bread and Circuses.’ ‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invaderthe barbarians enter Rome. Robert A. Heinlein, To Sail Beyond the Sunset pp. 226-227 (paperback) Now, if only Heinlein had known that Imperial Rome wasn't a "perfect democracy", those paragraphs would be a whole lot less stupid.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 182 by Coyote, posted 09-23-2013 10:56 PM | | Coyote has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 191 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 5:03 AM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18308 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Re: Heinlein describes this perfectly...
Dr.Adequate writes: Now, if only Heinlein had known that Imperial Rome wasn't a "perfect democracy", those paragraphs would be a whole lot less stupid. We are also not a perfect democracy, but I disagree with Coyotes conservative leanings since it moves the American Dream upward into the upper middle class and its ruthless competitive nature. The masses shouldn't be left to fend for themselves...but on the other hand I suppose we cant coddle everyone either. Perhaps I am a moderate in search of a solution that includes me.
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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1046 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: 10-22-2008
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Message 192 of 197 (707305)
09-26-2013 7:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 182 by Coyote
09-23-2013 10:56 PM
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Re: Heinlein describes this perfectly...
I prefer the older quote, usually attributed to Alexander Fraser Tytler, simply because I like the word 'largess':
quote:
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury.
I do appreciate that you go into some sort of withdrawal if deprived of the opportunity to quote Heinlein 36 times a day though, so I understand you have no choice in the matter. The problem with the idea, though, is that while it sounds very convincing in principle, it runs up against the small problem that it doesn't actually happen in reality, as can be seen from the fairly consistent rolling back of welfare benefitsand state support that has happened across democratic Europe in the last couple of decades. Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 182 by Coyote, posted 09-23-2013 10:56 PM | | Coyote has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 193 of 197 (707330)
09-26-2013 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 188 by Phat
09-25-2013 1:30 PM
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Re: Provision For Our Aging Workers
Thugpreacha writes: If we can all find a way to provide for me and other "me's" than I'll retire and let some young lad take my place.
As far as I'm concerned, a society that can't/won't provide the basic necessities for its members is a society that doesn't work. It may be necessary to "fix society". It may also be necessary to adjust some people's expectations.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 188 by Phat, posted 09-25-2013 1:30 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 194 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 1:21 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18308 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 194 of 197 (707361)
09-26-2013 1:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
09-26-2013 11:46 AM
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Re: Provision For Our Aging Workers
No doubt the bill will get paid. I think that we are in a process of negotiation with the other guests so that we all share the bill rather than get stuck with it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 193 by ringo, posted 09-26-2013 11:46 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: 01-12-2008
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Message 195 of 197 (707392)
09-26-2013 9:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 189 by Tangle
09-25-2013 4:51 PM
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Re: Heinlein describes this perfectly...
Coyote writes: ‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure Well so far bread and circuses is working fine and all democracies are working better than any other method. Plus, Heinlein, wonderful writer though he is, was writing fiction. "Bread and circuses" is not working fine in the US. There are simply too few people working to support those who are not working in the style to which they have been, or would like to become, accustomed. Add in those on food stamps or disability, or earning a pension which has not already been funded. Add in the money required to keep up with the give-aways our politicians are promising to get reelected. And perhaps one might consider the already-massive federal debt. No, "bread and circuses" is not working fine. While democracy has been "working better than any other method" it is suffering the problems Heinlein noted, and I doubt that it will be working well enough in the future. Maybe the founding fathers had it right--those who own property and pay taxes should be the ones allowed to vote. Those who are a burden on the economy should not be allowed to vote themselves "largess from the public treasury." And it is not just Heinlein, the writer of fiction who has put forth this idea: Alexander Fraser Tytler - Wikiquote
Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 189 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2013 4:51 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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