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Author Topic:   Our Socioeconomic Position is at Risk
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 136 of 197 (609308)
03-18-2011 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Straggler
03-18-2011 7:42 AM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
Straggler writes:
jar writes:
No, I said that WE are responsible for our not having equal influence, that it was our decision to create that situation. We did it to ourselves.
Well in that sense we might just as well say that everyone is responsible for everything. Where everyone includes every member of the human race past present or future and everything includes everything humanity as a whole ever does.
Or we could stop talking in soundbites and actually use terms meaningfully?
You are free to post what6 ever you want, I have always supported that right.
I post what I think is meaningful and useful and try not to misrepresent what YOU say.
Everyone is responsible and it's about time folk actually realized that, but of course, I have not said what you seem to imply I am saying.
The important thing to remember is that it is only the living adults that can take responsibility. Those that are dead are past accounting. Those that are not yet born or are very young cannot be responsible yet.
However, if the young and those born in the future do not fix what we broke, then yes, they will become responsible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 7:42 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 11:36 AM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 137 of 197 (609325)
03-18-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
03-18-2011 10:10 AM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
jar writes:
The important thing to remember is that it is only the living adults that can take responsibility.
How much do you think responsibility without power can achieve with regard to changing society?
Look at your answer in Message 15
Do you think that the system you are leaving to future generations provides sufficient power for them to wrest back the disproportionate wealth and influence held by a tiny minority democratically and without more extreme action?
jar writes:
I post what I think is meaningful and useful and try not to misrepresent what YOU say.
Then, with this aim in mind, my advice is to cease posting pseudo-profound one line soundbites.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 10:10 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 11:45 AM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 197 (609329)
03-18-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Straggler
03-18-2011 11:36 AM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
Whether or not they can succeed in changing society is up to them. And yes, I do think that they can wrest back the power and wealth. I don't think they will, but that's totally up to what THEY decide.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 11:36 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 12:26 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 139 of 197 (609336)
03-18-2011 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
03-18-2011 11:45 AM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
How?
If you were them how would you do that?
And why haven't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 11:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 12:35 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 197 (609337)
03-18-2011 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Straggler
03-18-2011 12:26 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
I tried and failed, may they do better.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 12:26 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 12:39 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 141 of 197 (609338)
03-18-2011 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
03-18-2011 12:35 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
Then on what basis do you think they will have the democratic power to make the changes you failed to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 12:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 12:44 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 142 of 197 (609339)
03-18-2011 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Straggler
03-18-2011 12:39 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
They have the power, that is called voting. The question is whether they will have the wisdom to effect the needed changes.
It's pretty obvious that old farts like me are the past. We failed. It's their problem now.
If you read what I have written, you will see that I have repeated said I expect that they will fail, and s they will suffer, but it really is up to them. Eventually the pain will get so great that they will make changes. It remains a question as to whether or not they will have the wisdom to make good changes.
For now it is up to YOU to become a vocal advocate for change, to get out there and try to effect change.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 12:39 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 1:11 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 143 of 197 (609343)
03-18-2011 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
03-18-2011 12:44 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
jar writes:
It's their problem now.
What was it you were saying about taking responsibility........?
jar writes:
They have the power, that is called voting.
I question how much power that really provides in the social situation "you" have passed on.
jar writes:
For now it is up to YOU to become a vocal advocate for change, to get out there and try to effect change.
Don't go resting on your failed laurels yet old man!!!
jar - "The important thing to remember is that it is only the living adults that can take responsibility".
As long as you live it is your responsibility too!!
jar writes:
For now it is up to YOU to become a vocal advocate for change, to get out there and try to effect change.
More seriously - How do you suggest one goes about this in a meaningful and non-futile way? It seems kinda...hopeless.....
jar writes:
It remains a question as to whether or not they will have the wisdom to make good changes
When a small minority with power, wealth and influence exert that over information and educational opportunity in society they create a self perpetuating system don't they?
How is that cycle broken? How can future generations wrest back the disproportionate wealth and influence held by a tiny minority democratically and without more extreme action?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 12:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 1:26 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 144 of 197 (609344)
03-18-2011 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Straggler
03-18-2011 1:11 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
If the situation really is futile, then the proper response is "Aw Tough kid, you're screwed."
I don't happen to think it is futile, but I do think that it going to be very, very difficult and that it will take at best, two generations.
The first step is in figuring out where WE went wrong, then identify the steps needed to try to correct those mistakes.
In the US, I think the first step that is needed is to re-regulate the media, to limit the number of outlets any one voice can control. To do that will require votes, and votes can only be influenced by discussion and there are still a few areas where at least in the US, that is still possible. WE need to be speaking out publicly and trying to influence others.
So first, use the channels that are available to try to build support for change.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 1:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 1:43 PM jar has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 145 of 197 (609347)
03-18-2011 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jar
03-18-2011 1:26 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
jar writes:
If the situation really is futile, then the proper response is "Aw Tough kid, you're screwed."
jar writes:
The first step is in figuring out where WE went wrong, then identify the steps needed to try to correct those mistakes.
Maybe the first step is to not take the "Aw Tough kid, you're screwed." approach to future generations?
Surely short termism is one of the key problems ingrained in the current system?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 1:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 1:48 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 146 of 197 (609348)
03-18-2011 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Straggler
03-18-2011 1:43 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
Whatever.
The key point is that WE are all there is to effect change.
And yes, the This Quarter Returns or During my time in office or this election cycle is part of the problem.
But WE are still all there is to effect change.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 1:43 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 2:07 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 147 of 197 (609353)
03-18-2011 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by jar
03-18-2011 1:48 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
OK. For once I am gonna ignore my natural inclination to pursue and leave it there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 1:48 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 03-18-2011 4:20 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 148 of 197 (609371)
03-18-2011 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Straggler
03-18-2011 2:07 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
I don't have anything to add either. From this day forward, all living Americans of voting age or higher are responsible collectively for trying to do our best to make a better future.
I still worry that the change will take too long, however. If a guy needs to see change in ten years or vote for long range planning to correct the problem fifty years from now, what should he choose? Should he sacrifice the quick fix that he and his generation needs in order to help people not yet born? Can God blame us for being selfish out of necessity??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 2:07 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 4:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 149 of 197 (609372)
03-18-2011 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
03-18-2011 4:20 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
Phat writes:
Should he sacrifice the quick fix that he and his generation needs in order to help people not yet born? Can God blame us for being selfish out of necessity??
Maybe not. But is that really the question being asked here?
The question, as I see it, pertains to power and influence and the disproportionate amount of it held by a small minority.
Was the decision to allow Fox to stand as a legitimate news channel really democratically made by a seething mass of the electorate who have a love of biased information?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Phat, posted 03-18-2011 4:20 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 03-18-2011 4:35 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 150 of 197 (609373)
03-18-2011 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Straggler
03-18-2011 4:30 PM


Re: we dood it to ourselves.
Straggler writes:
Was the decision to allow Fox to stand as a legitimate news channel really democratically made by a seething mass of the electorate who have a love of biased information?
I would say, kinda yes.
WE really preferred to be told what we wanted to hear.
It's not that they wanted biased information, it is that they never learned how to discriminate.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Straggler, posted 03-18-2011 4:30 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 03-19-2011 12:05 PM jar has replied

  
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