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Author Topic:   "Thuglicans" and the Tea "Federation Party"
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 127 (609476)
03-20-2011 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Buzsaw
03-20-2011 3:51 PM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
There are no violent passages in the Qur'an to quote, it is only when you take them out of context that they can be misrepresented as violent.
Asking me to do so is simply asking me to lie and misrepresent Islam, something I am not prepared to do.
Did you say "Providentially, what our nation has done, militarily and otherwise is often beneficial to the preservation of Israel, the messianic coming kingdom of God."? That is a classic example of Christian Fundamentalist advocating violence based on their total misrepresentation of the Bible.
Anyone that believes in messianic prophecy should scare the shit outta any thinking individual, but it is only the US crazies that actually have the capability to bring about Ragnark.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2011 3:51 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2011 8:43 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 107 of 127 (609478)
03-20-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Coragyps
03-20-2011 4:02 PM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
Buzsaw writes:
I'm still waiting for one example of violent actions that the NT advocates for Christians against anyone.
Coragyps writes:
Matthew 10:34? - "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
The J-guy alledgedly said that, Buz.
This is a good example of how we have to be very careful in our reading of ancient holy texts. Both the Bible and the Quran are culturally conditioned. They were written to a specific audience centuries ago. We live in a very different culture and when we read these books it is critical that we keep that in mind.
The message that Jesus brought was very counter-cultural which accounts for the fact that the message was usually couched in very cryptic language. In the case of this quote Jesus is referring back to the Jewish scriptures. (Micah 7:1-7) He is essentially saying that when his followers take the path of peace that he is proposing that it will bring serious opposition. It will bring actual physical attack and it will even separate families.
I suggest that someone from the Islamic faith would not understand what Jesus was saying in that verse and so I personally would be careful in taking an Islamic text and definitively saying this is what is meant by it.
I think that we have to look at the fact that the vast majority of Muslims want to live in harmony with their neighbours of other faiths. As Christians I suggest that the message is very clear. We are to reach out to them in love, realizing that it isn't always clear what that is going to look like, as we live in a world where the right thing is often ambiguous. (Take the current action in Libya for example.)
JMHO for what it's worth.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Coragyps, posted 03-20-2011 4:02 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2011 8:59 PM GDR has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 127 (609491)
03-20-2011 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Coragyps
03-20-2011 4:02 PM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
Coragyps writes:
I'm still waiting for one example of violent actions that the NT advocates for Christians against anyone.
Matthew 10:34? - "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
The J-guy alledgedly said that, Buz.
LOL, Coragyps. You need to cite where Jesus or his apostles used the sword on anyone or advocated using it on someone in order to advance his kingdom on earth.
I've explained why the "prince of peace" said what he said. He knew he and his apostles would all be killed. He also said that whoever follows him should expect to be hated by unbelievers and to be persecuted and killed. History attests to the fact that his prophecy has been fulfilled over the centuries as true Christians who followed his fundamentals have been persecuted and killed by the millions.
Jesus also knew that there would be wars over religions. Pagan Rome, popes and bishops of Vatican City and the Muslims have all persecuted and massacred fundamentalist Christians over the centuries.
Yes indeed, Jesus's prophecy has been fulfilled, that his gospel would bring a sword, upon him and his followers.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Coragyps, posted 03-20-2011 4:02 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 127 (609493)
03-20-2011 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
03-20-2011 4:03 PM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
jar writes:
There are no violent passages in the Qur'an to quote, it is only when you take them out of context that they can be misrepresented as violent.
Jar, you said, "Yes, we have read the alleged violent passages from the Qur'an .....". You need to quote those alleged violent passages to which you allude and explain to the sheeple how it is that they do not advocate violence.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 03-20-2011 4:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 03-20-2011 8:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 127 (609494)
03-20-2011 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
03-20-2011 8:43 PM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
Buzsaw writes:
jar writes:
There are no violent passages in the Qur'an to quote, it is only when you take them out of context that they can be misrepresented as violent.
Jar, you said, "Yes, we have read the alleged violent passages from the Qur'an .....". You need to quote those alleged violent passages to which you allude and explain to the sheeple how it is that they do not advocate violence.
I am not about to repost your misrepresentation of the Holy Qur'an. As I said in Message 106:
quote:
There are no violent passages in the Qur'an to quote, it is only when you take them out of context that they can be misrepresented as violent.
Asking me to do so is simply asking me to lie and misrepresent Islam, something I am not prepared to do.
Now did you say "Providentially, what our nation has done, militarily and otherwise is often beneficial to the preservation of Israel, the messianic coming kingdom of God."? That is a classic example of Christian Fundamentalist advocating violence based on their total misrepresentation of the Bible.
Anyone that believes in messianic prophecy should scare the shit outta any thinking individual, but it is only the US crazies that actually have the capability to bring about Ragnark.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2011 8:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2011 9:16 PM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 127 (609495)
03-20-2011 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by GDR
03-20-2011 4:52 PM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
GDR writes:
Buzsaw writes:
I'm still waiting for one example of violent actions that the NT advocates for Christians against anyone.
Coragyps writes:
Matthew 10:34? - "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
The J-guy alledgedly said that, Buz.
This is a good example of how we have to be very careful in our reading of ancient holy texts. Both the Bible and the Quran are culturally conditioned. They were written to a specific audience centuries ago. We live in a very different culture and when we read these books it is critical that we keep that in mind.
It's not that ambiguous, GDR. Jesus's words quoted above are as relevant today as ever, as is all of what he said. The same goes with the Quran. The modern Muslims who know and understand what Mohammed practiced and taught as well as his apostles do likewise, just as the fundi followers of Jesus do.
The reason people miss-read Jesus about the sword is not because it was not relevant to all ages. It's because they aren't studiously into the scriptures and how it relates to history and fulfilled prophecy, etc.
The same goes with moderate Muslims, most of who are in nations not yet ruled by Islam. The propagators of Islam are careful not to hit a nation too stringently until they have at least a third of the nation converted. Then they begin to make demands upon the sheeple who were miss-led into thinking that Islam was a peaceful and tolerant religion.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by GDR, posted 03-20-2011 4:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 03-20-2011 9:02 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 03-21-2011 1:43 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 127 (609496)
03-20-2011 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Buzsaw
03-20-2011 8:59 PM


The danger is Fundamentalist Christians.
Now did you say "Providentially, what our nation has done, militarily and otherwise is often beneficial to the preservation of Israel, the messianic coming kingdom of God."?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2011 8:59 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 127 (609498)
03-20-2011 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
03-20-2011 8:47 PM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
Jar, Jesus never told anyone to kill or persecute anyone. Governments and individuals are apples and oranges. We're talking fundi Christian individuals or Christian fundi organizations. You need to cite where any injure or kill in order to promote their religion.
The reason there are none is that violence is not a fundamental of the NT as it is in Islamic scriptures, plain and simple.
Surely you don't know more than the Mullahs and leaders of totalitarian Muslim nations about what the Quran says. They do and practice what they know it says. Most of the had to memorize it when they were children.
Do you deny that Mohammed and his followers did not kill, war and injure? Do you deny that Jesus and his apostles did no violence or advocated it?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 03-20-2011 8:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 03-20-2011 9:22 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 114 of 127 (609499)
03-20-2011 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Buzsaw
03-20-2011 9:16 PM


Still trying to change the subject?
Jesus doesn't scare me, US Fundamentalist Christians do.
Now did you say "Providentially, what our nation has done, militarily and otherwise is often beneficial to the preservation of Israel, the messianic coming kingdom of God."?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2011 9:16 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 115 of 127 (609511)
03-21-2011 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Buzsaw
03-20-2011 8:59 PM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
Buzsaw writes:
The reason people miss-read Jesus about the sword is not because it was not relevant to all ages. It's because they aren't studiously into the scriptures and how it relates to history and fulfilled prophecy, etc.
That is pretty much my point. A non-Christian will just read that verse of scripture and infer from it that Jesus was advocating violence. Just maybe a non-Muslim like yourself would take a verse in the Quran the same way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2011 8:59 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 03-21-2011 10:35 AM GDR has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 127 (609532)
03-21-2011 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by GDR
03-21-2011 1:43 AM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
GDR writes:
Buzsaw writes:
The reason people miss-read Jesus about the sword is not because it was not relevant to all ages. It's because they aren't studiously into the scriptures and how it relates to history and fulfilled prophecy, etc.
That is pretty much my point. A non-Christian will just read that verse of scripture and infer from it that Jesus was advocating violence. Just maybe a non-Muslim like yourself would take a verse in the Quran the same way.
GDR, WHAT BOTH OF THESE MEN, JESUS AND MOHAMMED, WROTE AND PRACTICED, ARE NOT SOME MYSTERIOUS CHANT. THEY BOTH MEANT WHAT THEY SAID AND THEY BOTH PRACTICED WHAT THEY SAID.
THE FUNDAMENTALISTS OF BOTH RELIGIONS KNOW AND PRACTICE WHAT BOTH OF THESE MEN, THE CHRIST AND THE ANTI-CHRIST ADVOCATED AND PRACTICED. IT'S BEEN THAT WAY EVER SINCE BOTH RELIGIONS WERE ESTABLISHED. IT'S THE UN-STUDIED IGNORANT ONES WHO DO NOT FOLLOW THE FUNDAMENTALS OF THEIR RESPECTIVE PROPHET/MESSIAH.
WHY SHOULD I, A DEVOUT FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN REFRAIN FROM WARNING AND INFORMING WHAT IS THE TRUTH CONCERNING THESE RELIGIONS.
AS FOR MAKING YOUR POINT, I DIDN'T. THE UNBELIEVER IS GOING TO TAKE EVERYTHING WRONG, NOT UNDERSTANDING THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD OR HIS WORD. THE UNBELIEVER WHO IS NOT OBJECTIVE AT HEART IS GOING TO SKEW ALL SCRIPTURE TO THEIR LIKING AND TO ACCOMMODATE THEIR LIFE STYLE, RENDERING THE PLAIN WRITTEN WORDS AS METAPHORICAL IN WHATEVER MANNER SUITS THEIR IDEOLOGY.
(Note: I was listening to the radio and not paying attention to my script when I typed this. Thus the caps. I made the best of it by sizing down.)

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by GDR, posted 03-21-2011 1:43 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 03-21-2011 10:54 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 117 of 127 (609533)
03-21-2011 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
03-21-2011 10:35 AM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
Buzsaw writes:
AS FOR MAKING YOUR POINT, I DIDN'T. THE UNBELIEVER IS GOING TO TAKE EVERYTHING WRONG, NOT UNDERSTANDING THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD OR HIS WORD. THE UNBELIEVER WHO IS NOT OBJECTIVE AT HEART IS GOING TO SKEW ALL SCRIPTURE TO THEIR LIKING AND TO ACCOMMODATE THEIR LIFE STYLE, RENDERING THE PLAIN WRITTEN WORDS AS METAPHORICAL IN WHATEVER MANNER SUITS THEIR IDEOLOGY.
But Buz.... you are the unbeliever when it comes to the Quran. You are not objective at heart and therefore likely to skew that text to your liking as well.
Essentially what you are saying though is that nobody reads any text objectively. We ALL come to these books with our subjective views. You would say though that the Bible is different and I would agree, (with my subjective view). I agree that the writers were inspired to write it but that also doesn't mean that their subjective views did not enter into the writing of it.
Yes, I believe that we are to study the Bible and to discern what its message is for us, but if you have noticed even among fundamentalists there are all sorts of disagreements about what the plain written words mean. Do all women keep their heads covered in your church? Do women speak in your church? I'm sure that you would agree that those words were written for a specific situation in a specific church nearly 2000 years ago, but if you are to take the "plain written words" as they stand then you aren't following the scriptures. (I know of at least one church that does follow those rules.)

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 03-21-2011 10:35 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 03-21-2011 11:22 AM GDR has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 127 (609540)
03-21-2011 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by GDR
03-21-2011 10:54 AM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
[qs=GDR]
Buzsaw writes:
AS FOR MAKING YOUR POINT, I DIDN'T. THE UNBELIEVER IS GOING TO TAKE EVERYTHING WRONG, NOT UNDERSTANDING THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD OR HIS WORD. THE UNBELIEVER WHO IS NOT OBJECTIVE AT HEART IS GOING TO SKEW ALL SCRIPTURE TO THEIR LIKING AND TO ACCOMMODATE THEIR LIFE STYLE, RENDERING THE PLAIN WRITTEN WORDS AS METAPHORICAL IN WHATEVER MANNER SUITS THEIR IDEOLOGY.
GDR writes:
But Buz.... you are the unbeliever when it comes to the Quran. You are not objective at heart and therefore likely to skew that text to your liking as well.
Yes, I am the unbeliever, but guess what. The Islamic fundamentalists are teaching and practicing exactly as I read it and as I observe them teaching and practicing. I'm being very objective, reading their scriptures and observing them practicing what I've read. Methinks you need to get objective, me brother.
GDR writes:
Essentially what you are saying though is that nobody reads any text objectively. We ALL come to these books with our subjective views. You would say though that the Bible is different and I would agree, (with my subjective view). I agree that the writers were inspired to write it but that also doesn't mean that their subjective views did not enter into the writing of it.
Yes, I believe that we are to study the Bible and to discern what its message is for us, but if you have noticed even among fundamentalists there are all sorts of disagreements about what the plain written words mean. Do all women keep their heads covered in your church? Do women speak in your church? I'm sure that you would agree that those words were written for a specific situation in a specific church nearly 2000 years ago, but if you are to take the "plain written words" as they stand then you aren't following the scriptures. (I know of at least one church that does follow those rules.)
Indeed, those doctrines were part of the fundamentals of Christianity. What have they to do with this topic of violence?
For what it's worth, if those fundamentals were observed in modern churches, God would be pleased. It was his Holy Spirit who inspired them to be written. Having said that, I'm not on a soap box advocating those fundamentals, regarding women, but I do refuse to sit under a woman preacher or teacher of men in any church, that being the role of men, Biblically. That is why there have never been any great or renowned women preacher or evangelists. Women are free to teach children and other women, however. If you want to discuss that further, I will participate if you propose a thread on it.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 03-21-2011 10:54 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 03-21-2011 11:26 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 120 by DrJones*, posted 03-21-2011 11:38 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 121 by GDR, posted 03-21-2011 11:55 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 126 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-24-2011 3:34 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 119 of 127 (609542)
03-21-2011 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Buzsaw
03-21-2011 11:22 AM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
Did you say "Providentially, what our nation has done, militarily and otherwise is often beneficial to the preservation of Israel, the messianic coming kingdom of God."?
Do you believe in Armageddon?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 03-21-2011 11:22 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 120 of 127 (609544)
03-21-2011 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Buzsaw
03-21-2011 11:22 AM


Re: The Violent and the Non-Violent
I'm being very objective..
Given your racist tendencies I find this very hard to beleive
...reading their scriptures
Really Buz? when did you learn Arabic?
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 03-21-2011 11:22 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Buzsaw, posted 03-21-2011 11:59 AM DrJones* has not replied

  
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