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Author Topic:   Moving towards an ID mechanism.
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 121 of 141 (265769)
12-05-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Wounded King
12-05-2005 11:54 AM


Re: Regarding Only QM-ID thought I think
There is also a large leap between a role for entanglement in the chemistry of life and a significant role in the non-random nature of certain mutations.
You've aleady put forward a paper that says QM governs DNA mutations and not classical mechanics. Entanglement is part of QM. So it's already on the table. The point of further inquiry on my part is to try to see how quantum mechanics is involved with respect to entanglement.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 122 of 141 (265924)
12-05-2005 11:53 PM


information
I think one interesting question about QM is where does the superpositional ability, the information, come from?

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Wounded King, posted 12-06-2005 4:31 AM randman has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 123 of 141 (265999)
12-06-2005 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by randman
12-05-2005 11:53 PM


Re: information
This is hardly moving towards an ID mechanism, it seems more to be moving towards navel gazing.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by randman, posted 12-05-2005 11:53 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 11:12 AM Wounded King has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 124 of 141 (266032)
12-06-2005 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Wounded King
12-06-2005 4:31 AM


Re: information
ID is adding information into a system by a directed, intelligent force. cavediver claims that the information set of the future in one sense is already here since it is within space-time, but Wheeler suggests the responses and thus the information set we see in the universe is also the result of the questions we ask of it, and that the universe contains an observer participancy phenomenon. So that makes it less likely that the universe we will experience is set in stone, meaning space-time is fixed.
It's not navel-gazing. If the physical universe works via observer participancy, then the information we see is partly determined by the universe's reactions to us. This observer participancy principle may be part of a ID mechanism since it contains within it, the ability to influence outcomes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Wounded King, posted 12-06-2005 4:31 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ramoss, posted 12-06-2005 12:20 PM randman has replied
 Message 127 by nwr, posted 12-06-2005 12:29 PM randman has not replied
 Message 128 by Wounded King, posted 12-06-2005 12:32 PM randman has not replied
 Message 129 by cavediver, posted 12-06-2005 12:56 PM randman has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 125 of 141 (266058)
12-06-2005 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by randman
12-06-2005 11:12 AM


Re: information
Ok.
Now, other than some bizarre application of QM which no one understands, and does not indicate an intelligent designer at all,
give me a way to test for ID.
give me a way to distinguish between 'Intelligent design', and variation with selection via the mechanism of natural selection.
give me a way that can test that there is an 'intelligence' behind QM.
Give me a way to 'detect' and 'quantify' information.
Give me a definition of Information that is consistant.

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 Message 124 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 11:12 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 12:21 PM ramoss has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 126 of 141 (266059)
12-06-2005 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ramoss
12-06-2005 12:20 PM


Re: information
Observer participancy in quantum mechanics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ramoss, posted 12-06-2005 12:20 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by ramoss, posted 12-06-2005 1:14 PM randman has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 127 of 141 (266060)
12-06-2005 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by randman
12-06-2005 11:12 AM


Re: information
ID is adding information into a system by a directed, intelligent force.
I think you are serving up word salad, lightly tossed. But, in the off chance that it was supposed to mean something, I'll give you an opportunity to explain whatever that was.
  1. What is the meaning of "information" that you are using here?
  2. What information is being added?
  3. To which system is this information being added?
  4. What is this intelligent force, and what physical evidence is there for such an intelligent force?
  5. In what way is this intelligent force directed, and what is the physical evidence for such direction?

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 Message 124 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 11:12 AM randman has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 128 of 141 (266061)
12-06-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by randman
12-06-2005 11:12 AM


Re: information
Wheeler suggests the responses and thus the information set we see in the universe is also the result of the questions we ask of it, and that the universe contains an observer participancy phenomenon. So that makes it less likely that the universe we will experience is set in stone, meaning space-time is fixed.
I don't see how that follows, the information set we see doesn't have to be the set of all relevant information. If one accepts that then the questions we ask only affect the answers we get, not the actual state of reality beyond the inside of our heads.
But down this path lies the question of whether we can actually choose the questions we ask and the issue of free will.
Can you see your navel yet?
If you had an actual basis for a mechanism rather than just some loose ideas from that most spooky and outre realm of hard science that is quantum physics, then there might be something that could actually be discussed.
As it is you seem to have simply been drawn into an argument over whether you even understand what Wheeler is saying. I don't know if you understand 'It from Bit' or not, but you have given only the vaguest of thoughts as to how it might lead to a basis for a mechanism for ID.
Your thoughts don't seem much developed from the 'Intelligence affects the collapse of the eigenstate' that I suggested on the first page of this thread. Although in your case presumably it requires a special class of intelligence which is not readily available for testing.
TTFN,
WK
This message has been edited by Wounded King, 06-Dec-2005 05:33 PM

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 129 of 141 (266067)
12-06-2005 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by randman
12-06-2005 11:12 AM


Re: information
cavediver claims that the information set of the future in one sense is already here since it is within space-time, but Wheeler suggests...
But Wheeler nothing. Wheeler does not believe any different to me in this respect. Perhaps you can point out anywhere that Wheeler states that information is added to the universe by nature of observation? Or by anything else, for that matter...

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 Message 124 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 11:12 AM randman has replied

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 Message 131 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 1:26 PM cavediver has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 130 of 141 (266077)
12-06-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by randman
12-06-2005 12:21 PM


Re: information
That does not answer one solitary question I had.
That, frankly, is totally meaningless to any of the questions I gave.
Now,
Will you address those points one at a time, or expand on how 'observer participation in quantum events' is meaninful in a testable way to any of those matters?

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 Message 126 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 12:21 PM randman has replied

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 Message 132 by randman, posted 12-06-2005 1:36 PM ramoss has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 131 of 141 (266083)
12-06-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by cavediver
12-06-2005 12:56 PM


Re: information
He doesn't say information is added, but does suggest that the form the information takes is influenced by observer participancy, hence my subsequent comment.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 132 of 141 (266088)
12-06-2005 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ramoss
12-06-2005 1:14 PM


Re: information
My point on this thread is that observer participancy and other aspects of QM appear, to me, to offer a mechanism for real world effects, proven by QM, that involve information, consciousness potentially, observation, and form as a by-product of a previous information-state. These are qualities that any potential ID mechanism would need to include, and so it appears to me QM research is inadvertently researching potential ID mechanisms.

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Cold Foreign Object 
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Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 133 of 141 (267856)
12-11-2005 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
11-21-2005 1:25 AM


Why have you assumed ID needs a mechanism ?
Evos don't even know what that means.
Evolutionists have no mechanism as NS is hindsight observation for the strong survive - no shit - extreme simpleton logic euphemistically called a mechanism/NS.
The origin of NS: Darwin concocted the idea after he read Malthus advocating govenmental help for the poor be abolished. Notice the "scientific origin" for this "scientific mechanism". I can provide exact source cites from respected Darwinian historians. Imagine that; NS originated from an argument denying the poor food stamps LOL !
In the mean time accept this link which candy coats my claim above:
Thomas Malthus
In Darwin's day NS was entirely rejected except by a few fanatics. Then in the 1930's when evos panicked and had to come up with a synthesis and mechanism they finally adopted Darwinian NS because they could not figure out how nature operated. We now know complexity is the m.o. of the IDer: complexity and nature are synonymous.
ID is observed = stark reality. You have swallowed a Darwinian straw man whole and have painted yourself into a corner.
ID has no mechanism. It is mechanisms that only God could have created like eyes and bat sonar.
Ray
The Emperor Has No Clothes - Naturalism and The Theory of Evolution
This message has been edited by Herepton, 12-11-2005 03:41 PM

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 Message 1 by randman, posted 11-21-2005 1:25 AM randman has replied

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 Message 134 by randman, posted 12-11-2005 10:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 134 of 141 (267936)
12-11-2005 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Cold Foreign Object
12-11-2005 6:24 PM


ID mechanism
Ray, I haven't swallowed an evo straw man as I would believe and argue the same thing regardless if evolution was on the table. I believe QM crosses over into spiritual mechanics.

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 Message 133 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-11-2005 6:24 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ramoss, posted 12-12-2005 11:02 AM randman has replied
 Message 138 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-12-2005 8:23 PM randman has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 135 of 141 (268123)
12-12-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by randman
12-11-2005 10:38 PM


Re: ID mechanism
There is a difference between believing something, and coming up with a way to falsify it, or having it be real.
How do you propose to test this belief? What testable statement, if proven true, proves that statement false? What methodolgy would you
use to test that statement?
I find QM very esoteric. I don't think that just because I don't understand it , that it means there is a 'spiritual gateway' there.
You need something more substantial.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by randman, posted 12-11-2005 10:38 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by randman, posted 12-12-2005 12:26 PM ramoss has replied
 Message 137 by Ragged, posted 12-12-2005 7:30 PM ramoss has replied

  
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