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Author Topic:   God's Place In Evolution
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 166 of 190 (606690)
02-27-2011 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by goldrush
02-27-2011 9:23 PM


goldrush writes:
My convictions are not contingent on scientific analysis and findings, although I do find it interesting when the Bible and science agree with each other. I view God as the highest authority, and I trust the Word of God over any man's conclusions, methods, or thoughts. Time and experience has proven that God's Word is superior to man's. The dating methods are based on our best current scientific understanding of things, which is likely to change the more we learn. Scientific understanding is never perfect, that's why our technology and medical treatments very often simultaneously create side effects and problems with their solutions. Scientists are human, always working with limited knowledge in ways they don't realize and therefore cannot fully understand where they may be wrong, or forsee all possibilities and implications of their work.We never know when we'lldiscover something new or better to help us realize facts we never knew we didn't know in the first place. What is found to be true scientifically is mutable, but God's Word never changes. God does not have to search for the answers or the truth, He already knows. All we have to do is listen to Him and trust Him to guide us. This is not to say science is pointless, it has many useful applications. It's just not the highest form of truth, knowledge and wisdom. And no, all evidence does not point against a flood as I have previously explained. And BTW, I am not a YEC. I simply believe in a Creator and creation.
The Biblical Flood has been refuted. To claim otherwise is simply to assert a falsehood.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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goldrush
Member (Idle past 4804 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 167 of 190 (606692)
02-27-2011 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by jar
02-27-2011 9:22 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
Yeah I know what it means. Scientists have a cell that is totally controlled by a synthetic chromosome, that they designed in a computer based on an existing chromosome. It's basically a cell running off a modified, artificial part. It's cool, but it doesn't imply that we can create a cell or chromosome, or DNA from scratch (as in no pre-existing chromosome, DNA, or cell to go by). What's the difference between artificial and natural life? The same difference between an artificial limb and a natural one.
Edited by goldrush, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by jar, posted 02-27-2011 9:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 02-27-2011 9:45 PM goldrush has not replied
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 Message 172 by frako, posted 02-28-2011 6:50 AM goldrush has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 168 of 190 (606693)
02-27-2011 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by goldrush
02-27-2011 9:37 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
goldrush writes:
Yeah I know what it means. Scientists have a cell that is totally controlled by a synthetic chromosome, that they designed in a computer based on an existing chromosome. It's basically a cell running off a modified, artificial part. It's cool, but it doesn't imply that we can create a cell or chromosome, or DNA from scratch (as in no pre-existing chromosome, DNA, or cell to go by). What's the difference between artificial and natural life? The same difference between an artificial limb and a natural one.
HUH?
Sorry but that is not just irrelevant it is silly.
What is the difference between natural and synthetic DNA. Hint we are talking about chemistry here.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 169 of 190 (606694)
02-27-2011 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by goldrush
02-27-2011 9:37 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
DNA from scratch
Creating DNA/RNA from scratch is actually how we were able to create the codon translation table - we would create RNA oligomers consisting of various repeating nucleotides, mix them with ribosomes, then identify what amino acids were in the proteins synthesized as a result.
DNA from scratch is how a recent lab was able to create an entirely novel protein, entirely from scratch, that mediates a Diels-Alder reaction, a highly useful chemical reaction nevertheless utterly unknown (as far as we've ever discovered) to the biological world. The necessary protein shape was calculated on the computer, the necessary primary structure was determined, the necessary DNA sequence followed quite obviously, it was synthesized and cloned into the E. coli expression system, and the protein - the world's first effective "Diels-Alderase" - was extracted by affinity chromatography.
So, actually, yeah. We're making DNA from scratch, these days. Cells? Not quite yet, but within ten years at most.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 170 of 190 (606699)
02-27-2011 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by goldrush
02-27-2011 9:23 PM


Nonsense start to finish
goldrush writes:
My convictions are not contingent on scientific analysis and findings, although I do find it interesting when the Bible and science agree with each other. I view God as the highest authority, and I trust the Word of God over any man's conclusions, methods, or thoughts. Time and experience has proven that God's Word is superior to man's.
In other words, you will ignore the evidence from the real world in favor of the voices in your head and ancient tribal texts. (Hint: don't bet the rent money on the latter.)
The dating methods are based on our best current scientific understanding of things, which is likely to change the more we learn. Scientific understanding is never perfect, that's why our technology and medical treatments very often simultaneously create side effects and problems with their solutions. Scientists are human, always working with limited knowledge in ways they don't realize and therefore cannot fully understand where they may be wrong, or forsee all possibilities and implications of their work.We never know when we'lldiscover something new or better to help us realize facts we never knew we didn't know in the first place.
Dating methods have indeed changed, but they have become increasingly in agreement with one another and increasingly in disagreement with interpretations of ancient tribal texts. The young earth belief has been totally disproved, for example.
Another good example is the creationists' claim that the speed of light is decreasing. That is only the case if you cherry-pick the data, which is a standard creationist tactic. In actuality, the speed of light is closing in on a value which is increasingly more precise.
What you are really doing with this argument is claiming that science is horribly wrong and doesn't know it. And you base this on non-scientific data--ancient tribal myths. Sorry, your religious belief doesn't constitute evidence of any kind.
What is found to be true scientifically is mutable, but God's Word never changes. God does not have to search for the answers or the truth, He already knows. All we have to do is listen to Him and trust Him to guide us.
Which god, and which interpretation of his word and TRVTH? There have been or are probably tens of thousands of god-claims. Are you saying that there is evidence that one of these is accurate and all others are false? How can you tell, empirically, that any are accurate?
This is not to say science is pointless, it has many useful applications. It's just not the highest form of truth, knowledge and wisdom.
How very condescending. And how very wrong.
Science is limited to that for which it can provide evidence. Would that religious beliefs and claims could be so supported. But I guess that's why there is such an emphasis on belief and faith--there is a lack of evidence.
And no, all evidence does not point against a flood as I have previously explained. And BTW, I am not a YEC. I simply believe in a Creator and creation.
The global flood ca. 4,350 years ago has been disproved totally. That evidence comes from multiple fields, beginning with geology some 200 years ago. Since then the evidence against the flood myth has become overwhelming.
My own archaeological research has shown that there is no evidence in some 100 sites I have tested for a global flood some 4,350 years ago. I have genetic results that show the same thing. If I can come up with this kind of disproof in the small area in which I work, pretty much anyone can.
Even you can! If there was a global flood at that time it would have included your back yard. All you have to do is some excavation and you can find out if there is evidence for a flood at that time or not. You might have to study some archaeology or sedimentology, and learn something about dating, but this is a test you can do yourself!
Or you can look up a local archaeological group; most major universities have one. Go out on an excavation and see what the soils at about 4,350 years of age look like. Any evidence of major deposition or erosional features? Or is there continuity of Native American cultures, fauna and flora, and mtDNA?
How about it? Are you up for this test? Or are you afraid of what you might find?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by goldrush, posted 02-27-2011 9:23 PM goldrush has not replied

  
RCS
Member (Idle past 2637 days)
Posts: 48
From: Delhi, Delhi, India
Joined: 07-04-2007


Message 171 of 190 (606746)
02-28-2011 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dr Adequate
02-16-2011 9:22 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
In Hinduism, there is NO myth about humans stealing fire from gods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-16-2011 9:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 172 of 190 (606748)
02-28-2011 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by goldrush
02-27-2011 9:37 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
It's cool, but it doesn't imply that we can create a cell
The first artificial cell was created by Thomas Chang at McGill University. An artificial cell wall/cell membrane is made of polymersomes. The hemoglobin is placed in the center. In the late sixties Thomas Chang discovered that artificial cells could carry enzymes which could correct certain metabolic disorders, and he also developed an artificial cell filled with charcoal which could treat drug poisoning.
Artificial cell - Wikipedia
so as you can see we can make cells we call them artificial because they are man made and are not natural.
or chromosome
Yeast artificial chromosomes and bacterial artificial chromosomes were created before human artificial chromosomes, which first appeared in 1997. They are useful in expression studies as gene transfer vectors and are a tool for elucidating human chromosome function. Grown in HT1080 cells, they are mitotically and cytogenetically stable for up to six months.
Human artificial chromosome - Wikipedia
oh gosh who knew we can make artificial chromosomes they are artificial because they are man made and not natural. The only diference is this, the chemistry is the SAME.
or DNA from scratch
When DNA is organized into long structures we call them chromosomes.
so if we can make chromosomes we can make frigging DNA.
not only that we went a step further and made DNA-like molecules
Specifically, the team showed that an artificially created DNA-like molecule containing six gene-building nucleotides - instead of the four found in natural DNA - could support the molecular "photocopying" operation known as polymerase chain reaction.
Evolving Artificial DNA
Yea we went one better then your "god" and added 2 more gen building nucleotides.
and when you add all this knowlage up you can make a man made artificial cell <------- needed
The same difference between an artificial limb and a natural one.
No its the same difference as your hand being sown off then a new flesh and bone hand is grown in a jar and sown back on being TOTALLY identical to the hand you previously had in every aspect except that this one was fully man made.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by goldrush, posted 02-27-2011 9:37 PM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 173 of 190 (606749)
02-28-2011 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by RCS
02-28-2011 6:14 AM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
You may be right; I suppose you'd know.
Some websites identify Matarisvan as a Promethean figure, but looking into it I think this is a case of shoehorning, which must be one of the besetting vices of comparative mythologists.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 174 of 190 (606754)
02-28-2011 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by goldrush
02-27-2011 9:23 PM


Scientists are human, always working with limited knowledge in ways they don't realize and therefore cannot fully understand where they may be wrong, or forsee all possibilities and implications of their work.
I could say the same of theologians.
What is found to be true scientifically is mutable, but God's Word never changes. [...] And BTW, I am not a YEC.
So it seems like God's word is immutable, but what it supposedly means varies from century to century and from person to person.
All we have to do is listen to Him and trust Him to guide us.
And apparently the YECs have some sort of hearing impediment. As do the evolutionist Christians, the local-flooders, the geocentrists (I presume you aren't one of them), the flat-Earthers (ditto) and all the various people who think you're damned to eternal Hell for heresy.
And then we could get started on all the other religions ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by goldrush, posted 02-27-2011 9:23 PM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
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goldrush
Member (Idle past 4804 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 175 of 190 (607081)
03-01-2011 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Dr Adequate
02-28-2011 8:36 AM


Theologians and scientists are alike in that they are both interpreters, some of which twist evidence to fit their worldview and beliefs. The Bible is God's Word. The interpretation is His. Man has no right to impose his/her own interpretations on it and present it as Gid's Word. When comparing scripture for scripture and like subjects applied keeping accounts in context, there is only 1 true interpretation of the Bible, God's interpretation, an interpretation that never changes.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 179 by bluescat48, posted 03-02-2011 1:13 AM goldrush has not replied

  
goldrush
Member (Idle past 4804 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 176 of 190 (607082)
03-01-2011 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by frako
02-28-2011 6:50 AM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
Did you read the literature on this and my post? A cell has NOT been created, only used to implant a modified copy-cat version of a natural chromosome that had been analyzed. The artificially created chromosome is a mere copy and augmentation of an already existing natural chromosome. Intelligent design (computer software and human ingenuity) was used in creating this modified chromosome replica (from a preexisting natural chromosome). So no, not even this chromosome was built from scratch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by frako, posted 02-28-2011 6:50 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by frako, posted 03-02-2011 6:01 AM goldrush has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 177 of 190 (607085)
03-01-2011 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by goldrush
03-01-2011 10:15 PM


Catechism
Theologians and scientists are alike in that they are both interpreters, some of which twist evidence to fit their worldview and beliefs. The Bible is God's Word. The interpretation is His. Man has no right to impose his/her own interpretations on it and present it as Gid's Word. When comparing scripture for scripture and like subjects applied keeping accounts in context, there is only 1 true interpretation of the Bible, God's interpretation, an interpretation that never changes.
This is the Science Forum.
Don't you feel embarrassed reciting your catechism lessons in a Science Forum?
Myths are better discussed in a Literature or perhaps a Folklore setting.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by goldrush, posted 03-01-2011 10:15 PM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by goldrush, posted 03-02-2011 1:09 AM Coyote has replied

  
goldrush
Member (Idle past 4804 days)
Posts: 61
Joined: 02-08-2011


Message 178 of 190 (607102)
03-02-2011 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Coyote
03-01-2011 10:29 PM


Re: Catechism
Lol. Even though you are right to bring out I am going off topic, to be fair, I was actually replying to a post questioning my Biblical conviction, not science. I am not reciting any catechism lessons BTW, lol. And no, I'm not embarrassed. Are you embarrassed for wrongly accusing me of reciting catechisms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Coyote, posted 03-01-2011 10:29 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 179 of 190 (607104)
03-02-2011 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by goldrush
03-01-2011 10:15 PM


Theologians and scientists are alike in that they are both interpreters, some of which twist evidence to fit their worldview and beliefs. The Bible is God's Word. The interpretation is His. Man has no right to impose his/her own interpretations on it and present it as Gid's Word. When comparing scripture for scripture and like subjects applied keeping accounts in context, there is only 1 true interpretation of the Bible, God's interpretation, an interpretation that never changes.
If that were true, why are there so many sects, each claiming to be the right one? How do you know that the transcribers didn't mess up their transcriptions? Where is the evidence that these stories are inspired by your Deity?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 180 of 190 (607105)
03-02-2011 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by goldrush
03-02-2011 1:09 AM


Re: Catechism
Man has no right to impose his/her own interpretations on it and present it as Gid's Word. When comparing scripture for scripture and like subjects applied keeping accounts in context, there is only 1 true interpretation of the Bible, God's interpretation, an interpretation that never changes.
That's catechism, not science.
Some might claim it's folklore or mythology. But it certainly isn't science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by goldrush, posted 03-02-2011 1:09 AM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
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