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Author Topic:   Entropy and the immutable law of death
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 31 of 83 (425927)
10-04-2007 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
09-25-2007 11:01 AM


Re: The Answers.
...the random mutation that would do it simply hasn't happened.
Even if had - it would provide almost no selective advantage whatsoever, since organisms rarely get to an old age.

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 Message 29 by jar, posted 09-25-2007 11:01 AM jar has not replied

  
Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 32 of 83 (427558)
10-11-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Adequate
09-22-2007 5:52 AM


Re: What are the different kinds of entropy, anyhow?
Dr Adequate writes:
So far as I know, no-one has ever argued that "entropy only corresponds to closed systems", a phrase which doesn't actually mean anything, and which gets no google hits whatsoever.
Im not sure i read this right. If youre saying seriously what you mean in the quotes, then my response is one of shock.
the 2LoT only pertains to closed systems by its own definition, since the universe cannot lose or gain entropy. A biological system is NOT a closed system, for the record, but as far as the law goes...
Thats how its written.
Thats what it means.
*Apologies if im misinterperating your post.*
Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.

This statement is false.
Yeah so i lurk more than i post, thats why my posts are so low for two year's worth of membership. So sue me.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 10-11-2007 11:48 PM Damouse has replied
 Message 34 by NosyNed, posted 10-11-2007 11:50 PM Damouse has not replied
 Message 39 by aviator79, posted 10-16-2007 1:33 PM Damouse has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 83 (427560)
10-11-2007 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Damouse
10-11-2007 11:34 PM


Re: What are the different kinds of entropy, anyhow?
Im not sure i read this right. If youre saying seriously what you mean in the quotes, then my response is one of shock.
No, he's right. All systems, open or closed, exhibit entropy to some degree, and at any time that entropy may be increasing or decreasing. Entropy is not a property exclusive to closed systems; it is present in any system.
The second law makes specific reference to isolated systems because they're the systems with the least confounding factors; in all such systems that are not already at equilibrium, entropy increases until they are.
But entropy tends to increase in open systems, as well, and only decreases if the interaction of the system with the exterior reduces entropy.
the 2LoT only pertains to closed systems by its own definition, since the universe cannot lose or gain entropy.
The universe can and does gain entropy as heat differentials are exploited to do work, and the entire universe trends inexorably towards equilibrium.
A biological system is NOT a closed system, for the record, but as far as the law goes...
Biological systems are indeed open, but again, entropy applies to such systems just as much as to any other. Indeed, its the second law of thermodynamics - the trend towards increasing entropy in all systems - that makes chemical reactions, and therefore life, possible in the first place.
At least that's a Chem 109 perspective on it.

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 Message 32 by Damouse, posted 10-11-2007 11:34 PM Damouse has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 34 of 83 (427561)
10-11-2007 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Damouse
10-11-2007 11:34 PM


Entropy and Open systems
the 2LoT only pertains to closed systems by its own definition, since the universe cannot lose or gain entropy. A biological system is NOT a closed system, for the record, but as far as the law goes...
The second law is not all of thermodynamics.
The quote says: "entropy only corresponds to closed systems". That is not true. The second law isn't only about closed systems either.
It is simply stating a constraint that is significant in closed systems. Entropy and the 2nd law applies in open systems too but it doesn't constrain them in the same way.

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Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 35 of 83 (428274)
10-15-2007 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
10-11-2007 11:48 PM


Re: What are the different kinds of entropy, anyhow?
Ahh apologies. ill get to Chem 109 evenntually.
The second law makes specific reference to isolated systems because they're the systems with the least confounding factors; in all such systems that are not already at equilibrium, entropy increases until they are.
The universe can and does gain entropy as heat differentials are exploited to do work, and the entire universe trends inexorably towards equilibrium.
What do you mean by the universe at equilibrium?

This statement is false.
Yeah so i lurk more than i post, thats why my posts are so low for two year's worth of membership. So sue me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 10-11-2007 11:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 10-15-2007 8:14 PM Damouse has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 36 of 83 (428282)
10-15-2007 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Damouse
10-15-2007 7:05 PM


Re: What are the different kinds of entropy, anyhow?
What do you mean by the universe at equilibrium?
A universe at equilibrium means entropy is at a maximum. It means that no energy is available to do work. It means that all temperature differentials have equalized until the entire universe and everything in it are at the same temperature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Damouse, posted 10-15-2007 7:05 PM Damouse has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Damouse, posted 10-15-2007 9:46 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 37 of 83 (428300)
10-15-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by crashfrog
10-15-2007 8:14 PM


Re: What are the different kinds of entropy, anyhow?
Is universal equilibrium under an infinite timeframe or a realistic one?

This statement is false.
Yeah so i lurk more than i post, thats why my posts are so low for two year's worth of membership. So sue me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by crashfrog, posted 10-15-2007 8:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by crashfrog, posted 10-16-2007 12:15 AM Damouse has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 38 of 83 (428325)
10-16-2007 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Damouse
10-15-2007 9:46 PM


Re: What are the different kinds of entropy, anyhow?
Is universal equilibrium under an infinite timeframe or a realistic one?
No, it's finite time. It has to be, according to the second law.
It's possible that the universe may collapse before equilibrium is reached, but I'm not a physicist, and I'm not in touch with the current thought on that. (I think the discovery of anti-gravitational "dark energy" turns out to be enough of a prop to hold the universe open long enough to experience equilibrium, aka "heat death", but I don't know for sure.)

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aviator79
Junior Member (Idle past 5980 days)
Posts: 17
From: Chandler, AZ
Joined: 05-15-2007


Message 39 of 83 (428465)
10-16-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Damouse
10-11-2007 11:34 PM


Re: What are the different kinds of entropy, anyhow?
quote:
since the universe cannot lose or gain entropy
This is an easy mistake to make. When studying thermodynamics, we get so used to conserved quantities like mass and energy, that it seems natural to extend conservation principles to entropy. Entropy is not a conserved quantity. It can (and does) increase in a totally closed system.

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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 5974 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 40 of 83 (433020)
11-09-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by aviator79
10-16-2007 1:33 PM


misconception of entropy
I've read that Creationists used entropy to prove evolution false. They claim that since the 2nd law of thermodynamic says things tend to disorder, and evolution heads towards order, then evolution must be wrong. This is a view of someone who does not fully understand entropy.
Simply put, evolution is a system; the entropy in the UNIVERSE (system + surrounding), not system, is always either increasing or remains the same. So evolution (system) can become more ordered (decrease in entropy) given that the surrounding increases in entropy.
*NOTE: evolution is an open system* ie it reacts with the environment (surrounding).

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 83 (433024)
11-09-2007 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ChemEbeaver
11-09-2007 3:29 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
Simply put, evolution is a system;
Evolution is actually not a thermodynamic system. Organisms are thermodynamic systems, open ones; evolution is a description of what happens to populations of such systems over time, much as the second law of thermodynamics is not itself a system but a description of what systems do.
It is true that the 2nd law does not apply to evolution and represents no obstacle to it. People seem to forget that the reason this is true is not because evolution is not a closed system, but because evolution is not any kind of system at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-09-2007 3:29 PM ChemEbeaver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-10-2007 12:34 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 43 by ChemEbeaver, posted 11-10-2007 12:49 PM crashfrog has replied

  
ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 5974 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 42 of 83 (433166)
11-10-2007 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by crashfrog
11-09-2007 3:36 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
It's true, evolution is not technically a system, it's a process like combustion or decomposition. I was trying to keep it simple.
Let me rephrase, the process of evolution takes place in an open system that can be decreased in entropy. There are a lot of chemistry reasons behind it, involving enthalpy, heat transfer, work, temperature and Gibbs free energy of spontaneity. But much to long and complicated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 11-09-2007 3:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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ChemEbeaver
Junior Member (Idle past 5974 days)
Posts: 18
From: Aloha, OR, USA
Joined: 11-09-2007


Message 43 of 83 (433171)
11-10-2007 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by crashfrog
11-09-2007 3:36 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
2nd law does not apply to evolution
The laws of thermodynamics apply to everything physical, large or quantum. This is what makes it a law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 11-09-2007 3:36 PM crashfrog has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 83 (433173)
11-10-2007 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ChemEbeaver
11-10-2007 12:34 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
It's true, evolution is not technically a system, it's a process like combustion or decomposition.
Well, no. Combustion and decomposition are thermodynamic systems. Combustion in many ways is the classic thermodynamic system.
Evolution isn't like either of those, because it's not a process where molecules break and form chemical bonds causing a net change in the total heat of the system.
Evolution is a description of a trend in living populations. It's not a thermodynamic system, evolution doesn't take in energy and output work or heat. It's a description of a trend.
Let me rephrase, the process of evolution takes place in an open system that can be decreased in entropy.
Evolution doesn't have anything to do with entropy. The living populations that experience evolution are made of organisms, and organisms are thermodynamic systems, but evolution itself is no more a thermodynamic system than the Second Law of Thermodynamics itself is. Evolution is just the description of a trend we observe in living populations. It has nothing to do with the second law, except insofar as the second law represents a constraint on the living organisms that form the populations evolution influences.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 45 of 83 (433175)
11-10-2007 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ChemEbeaver
11-10-2007 12:49 PM


Re: misconception of entropy
The laws of thermodynamics apply to everything physical, large or quantum.
The laws of thermodynamics apply to thermodynamic systems, that is, systems where heat (thermo) is changing (dynamic), hence the name.
Evolution is not a thermodynamic system, any more than the Second Law is a thermodynamic system. It's a description of a trend in populations.
The Second Law describes a trend of systems. Evolution describes a trend in populations. The second law no more applies to evolution than it applies to itself. The second law puts a constraint on living organisms, but it doesn't apply to populations (because populations are not thermodynamic systems) and it doesn't apply to evolution (which is a description of a trend in populations, not a thermodynamic system.)

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