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Author Topic:   Animals with bad design.
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 182 of 204 (608914)
03-15-2011 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Kaichos Man
03-15-2011 6:18 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
No idea.
What a shame. You'd entertained us so with your stories of how it had "multi-coloured fur, stripes, spots and sabre-teeth", but apparently when it galloped past in your dreams it was going too fast for you to count its toes.
Does having more toes represent an increase in information? Is a two-headed snake a more complex creature? I tend to regard the flexibility in feline toe-number as a genetic weakness. I certainly don't see it as a banner of hope for the ToE.
You say the funniest things.
"Banner of hope for the ToE"? We just want to know what your imaginary animal looks like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Kaichos Man, posted 03-15-2011 6:18 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4488 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 183 of 204 (608916)
03-15-2011 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Dr Adequate
03-06-2011 12:17 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
And the ability to climb trees
Not enjoyed by the cheetah- it's the only member of the cat family that can't.
and run at seventy miles an hour.
Enjoyed only by the cheetah. This is a very simple proposition, Doctor. A leopard, through deleterious mutation, lost the ability to retract its claws. Those claws became blunt and dog-like. The individuals carrying the mutation, unable to climb trees, had to rely on their speed over the ground. The fastest survived -natural selection- and the cheetah was born.
Very straightforward speciation through loss of genetic information.
You speak as though creationists were in agreement. They are not.
Absolutely right. I shall, from now on, try to express my views as precisely that, and not the views of Creationists in general.
It supports Darwin's idea that evolution can happen as a result of loss
No, it goes further than that. Read it. It suggests that loss of information has played a far greater role in evolution than formerly supposed. My contention, that loss of information is the only form of evolution, is my own view. I don't suggest that the evidence presented leads naturally to that conclusion, only in that direction.

"When man loses God, he does not believe in nothing. He believes in anything" G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-06-2011 12:17 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-15-2011 8:01 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 188 by Jefferinoopolis, posted 03-15-2011 11:11 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 184 of 204 (608920)
03-15-2011 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Kaichos Man
03-15-2011 7:35 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
Not enjoyed by the cheetah- it's the only member of the cat family that can't.
[...]
Enjoyed only by the cheetah.
But presumably your imaginary ancestral supercat could do both, right? That's what I was asking. It must have had spots and stripes and a mane and retractable claws and saber-teeth and the ability to climb trees and the ability to run at 70 mph and been yellow and orange and black and brown and white and roared like a lion and mewed like a cat and was good at killing water-buffalo and catching mice.
Do let us know if you ever find a fossil.
Of course, this is nothing compared to the original supermammal, which had the intelligence of a human, the trunk of an elephant, the legs of a giraffe ... and which also didn't exist.
No, it goes further than that. Read it. It suggests that loss of information has played a far greater role in evolution than formerly supposed. My contention, that loss of information is the only form of evolution, is my own view. I don't suggest that the evidence presented leads naturally to that conclusion, only in that direction.
Not particularly. If it was discovered that there were far more species of bacteria than previously supposed, that would not tend to lead one "in the direction" of the proposition that all organisms are bacteria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Kaichos Man, posted 03-15-2011 7:35 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 4488 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 185 of 204 (608921)
03-15-2011 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by bluescat48
03-05-2011 11:43 PM


Re: The Great Jenkins
Except that the "original"cat would have been more like the cheetah than any other cat. The retractable claws came later. The cat's common ancestor with the other Carnivora had no retractable claws.
Look at my reply to Dr Adequate above, Bluescat.
To believe that the cat evolved retractable claws, you have to believe the following:
That cats, through copying mistakes, gained sharp-ended claws, tendons, tendon sheaths, and retractory muscles in their legs. Each copying mistake took the form of an enormously complex genetic architecture to create those structures. Each structure, though absolutely useless on its own, conveyed a survival advantage on the mutants that caused them to survive while all other members of the population died out. It goes something like this:
A cat, through a random mutation, gains extra muscles in its leg. All other members of the population die out. Why?
The cat mutates tendons attached to the muscles. All other members of the population die out. Why?
The cat mutates tendon sheaths to protect the tendons. Without them, the friction between bare tendon and muscle would create irritation, infection and death. Kind of hard to understand how the previous generations survived, but hey. All non-mutants (hardly surprisingly) die out.
The cat finally mutates sharp claws. Well done. We now have a genuine, believable, survival advantage. What a shame that the first three stages defy all logic.
You know, and I know, that the first three stages don't make sense. This is Irreducible Complexity, and it can no more create retractable claws than it can create avian lungs, or eyes or ears or brains or echo-location organs.
The cheetah evolved from the leopard through a simple loss of genetic information. It's simple, logical and believable. I would even suggest that most evolutionists believe this.
The opposite -leopard evolving from cheetah- is a perfect illustration of the logic-denying idiocy of neo-Darwinian fundamentalists.
Edited by Kaichos Man, : further info

"When man loses God, he does not believe in nothing. He believes in anything" G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by bluescat48, posted 03-05-2011 11:43 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-15-2011 8:37 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 189 by bluescat48, posted 03-15-2011 11:44 AM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 190 by Meddle, posted 03-15-2011 12:13 PM Kaichos Man has not replied
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 03-15-2011 2:31 PM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 186 of 204 (608922)
03-15-2011 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Kaichos Man
03-15-2011 8:12 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
To believe that the cat evolved retractable claws, you have to believe the following:
No, actually to believe that the cat evolved retractable claws I have to believe that the cat evolved retractable claws. If I want to go into further detail, the evidence compels me to believe that this process took place in accordance with the theory of evolution rather than some nonsense that some bloke who calls himself "Kaichos Man" made up in his head.
The cheetah evolved from the leopard through a simple loss of genetic information. It's simple, logical and believable. I would suggest that most evolutionists believe this.
And you are, as usual, most amusingly wrong.
The opposite -leopard evolving from cheetah- is a perfect illustration of the logic-denying idiocy of neo-Darwinian fundamentalists.
No, it's a perfect example of something else you've made up in your head. Back in the real world --- remember that? --- no-one claims that leopards evolved from cheetahs; because of the real world not being populated by the imaginary people who live in your brain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Kaichos Man, posted 03-15-2011 8:12 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 187 of 204 (608929)
03-15-2011 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Kaichos Man
03-15-2011 6:32 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
Kaichos Man writes:
Exquisite design, way beyond the reach of dumb, blind copying mistakes.
Then how do you explain all of the extinct species? They failed to adapt to their environment.
"Inbuilt reducing versatility" can only account for different species moving into different niches. It can't account for adaptation to changes in those niches.
If species evolved naturally, we'd expect a lot of the "accidental" changes to fail, which is exactly what we see. If they were designed to fail, that's bad design.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Kaichos Man, posted 03-15-2011 6:32 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Jefferinoopolis
Junior Member (Idle past 4089 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 09-27-2010


Message 188 of 204 (608930)
03-15-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Kaichos Man
03-15-2011 7:35 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
Enjoyed only by the cheetah. This is a very simple proposition, Doctor. A leopard, through deleterious mutation, lost the ability to retract its claws. Those claws became blunt and dog-like. The individuals carrying the mutation, unable to climb trees, had to rely on their speed over the ground. The fastest survived -natural selection- and the cheetah was born.
According to the San Diego Zoo, Leopards have retractable claws. Cheetahs on the other hand only have partially retractable claws. This ensures that they maintain traction when they make turns at a full run.
Home | San Diego Zoo Animals & Plants
Cheetah - Wikipedia
Edited by Jefferinoopolis, : Forgot to add the link
Edited by Jefferinoopolis, : Added link for Cheetah statement

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Kaichos Man, posted 03-15-2011 7:35 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by NoNukes, posted 03-15-2011 12:33 PM Jefferinoopolis has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 189 of 204 (608935)
03-15-2011 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Kaichos Man
03-15-2011 8:12 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
A cat, through a random mutation, gains extra muscles in its leg. All other members of the population die out. Why?
The cat mutates tendons attached to the muscles. All other members of the population die out. Why?
The cat mutates tendon sheaths to protect the tendons. Without them, the friction between bare tendon and muscle would create irritation, infection and death. Kind of hard to understand how the previous generations survived, but hey. All non-mutants (hardly surprisingly) die out.
The cat finally mutates sharp claws. Well done. We now have a genuine, believable, survival advantage. What a shame that the first three stages defy all logic.
So to you it makes more sense to regress back to the pre-cat than to advance toward more survivability. The term is survival of the fittest. Since at this period there was no necessity of punctuated equilibrium, evolution could react slowly, by natural selection. Those that did not have these mutations were less likely to survive to pass their genes and thus they died out.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Kaichos Man, posted 03-15-2011 8:12 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Meddle
Member (Idle past 1270 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


(1)
Message 190 of 204 (608938)
03-15-2011 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Kaichos Man
03-15-2011 8:12 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
Kaichos Man writes:
That cats, through copying mistakes, gained sharp-ended claws, tendons, tendon sheaths, and retractory muscles in their legs. Each copying mistake took the form of an enormously complex genetic architecture to create those structures.
But it wouldn't need to do this, since the anatomy involved is not fundamentally different from our hands and feet. Both our nails and cats claws attach to the distal phalanges, the flexing of fingers and claws are both carried out with muscles further up the hand pulling on tendons, and these tendons both have sheaths (just like all tendons in the body.
The main difference I can see is that the tendons in cats attach further up the distal phalanges, allowing them to be pulled back further. There is also some modification of the intermediate phalanges to accommodate this. Here's a nice pic of the structure, can you see any fundamental differences:
As for nails themselves they continuously grow because, under normal circumstances they are susceptible to wear and tear. However as the retractable claw developed, the claws themselves became protected from being worn down, allowing them to maintain their sharpness for catching prey. Even the Cheetah, with partially retractable claws, uses them to catch prey.
Edited by Malcolm, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 204 (608942)
03-15-2011 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Jefferinoopolis
03-15-2011 11:11 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
Jefferinoopolis writes:
According to the San Diego Zoo, Leopards have retractable claws. Cheetahs on the other hand only have partially retractable claws. This ensures that they maintain traction when they make turns at a full run.
K Man is saying that cheetahs are devolved leopards. Nothing you have posted is in conflict with this idea. That said, it is pretty clear that K Man pulled his lineage theory out of thin air. It's just a story that does not match up with the fossil evidence. But it might turn out that the cheetah did evolve from a bigger cat ancestor with fully retractable claws.
But so what? Nobody is claiming that evolution always results in bigger, stronger, more intelligent animals. Cheetahs fit an ecological niche that would be very difficult for other cats to fill. Cheetahs pray on gazelles that most other cats could never catch. Is it really all that hard to imagine natural selection producing this result?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : remove "more bigger"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Jefferinoopolis, posted 03-15-2011 11:11 AM Jefferinoopolis has replied

Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 192 of 204 (608945)
03-15-2011 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Kaichos Man
03-15-2011 7:35 AM


Re: The Great Jenkins
Hi, Kaichos Man.
Kaichos Man writes:
A leopard, through deleterious mutation, lost the ability to retract its claws. Those claws became blunt and dog-like. The individuals carrying the mutation, unable to climb trees, had to rely on their speed over the ground. The fastest survived -natural selection- and the cheetah was born.
Very straightforward speciation through loss of genetic information.
The problems with this concept are pretty acute: cheetahs are genetically similar to cougars, lynxes, bobcats and house cats, but are not genetically similar to leopards. Leopards are genetically similar to tigers, lions and jaguars.
On the basis of this, evolutionists conclude that cheetahs did not evolve from leopards, but from a cougar-like ancestor. Without this rather critical bit of information, your story comes off as pretty uninspired.
Also:
(Here is a link, in case the picture stops working again. Here is a link to another picture, for good measure.)
That's a cheetah, by the way. In a tree.
I've said this at least a dozen times before: nature is not nearly as clean or as neatly partitioned as creationists imagine. I know of very few "rules" about animal behavior (e.g. leopards climb, cheetahs run) that are actually legitimately born out in nature.
Edited by Bluejay, : Attempt to re-paste the picture for CS. It was working just fine yesterday.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

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Replies to this message:
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Jefferinoopolis
Junior Member (Idle past 4089 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 09-27-2010


Message 193 of 204 (608958)
03-15-2011 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by NoNukes
03-15-2011 12:33 PM


Re: The Great Jenkins
K Man is saying that cheetahs are devolved leopards. Nothing you have posted is in conflict with this idea.
K Man stated that Cheetahs lost the ability to retract their claws and therefore a loss of information occurred.
However that isn't correct. Cheetahs still maintain the ability to retract their claws. They can't fully retract them like most other cats but the structure is still there to retract them. Nothing has been lost.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 194 of 204 (608960)
03-15-2011 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Kaichos Man
03-15-2011 8:12 AM


Kaichos Man writes:
The cheetah evolved from the leopard through a simple loss of genetic information.
I don't know why that keeps coming up. It isn't a "loss" of information; it's a change of information. You don't need new words to write a different book. You just have to arrange the existing words in a different order.
Edited by ringo, : Removed shopworn subtitle.

If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Kaichos Man, posted 03-15-2011 8:12 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 204 (608965)
03-15-2011 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by ringo
03-15-2011 2:31 PM


You don't need new words to write a different book. You just have to arrange the existing words in a different order.
Or, we don't come up with new books by removing information from the superbook of all phrases.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 196 of 204 (608967)
03-15-2011 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by NoNukes
03-15-2011 12:33 PM


Re: The Great Jenkins
But it might turn out that the cheetah did evolve from a bigger cat ancestor with fully retractable claws.
This seems likely; and I don't think anyone would quarrel with that. But his suggestion that this ancestry was from an undiscovered supercat via a leopard is right out.

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