Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Would confirmation of the "Biblical Exodus" add any support for God
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 56 (595259)
12-07-2010 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
12-07-2010 5:37 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
And I await someone showing how part two might get confirmed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 12-07-2010 5:37 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2010 6:11 PM jar has replied
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 12-07-2010 8:01 PM jar has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 32 of 56 (595267)
12-07-2010 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
12-07-2010 5:41 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
Before we get into details like that I think we need to decide what the Exodus needs to be - i.e how close events need to be to the story to count.
Do we need a full 2 million Hebrews ? A few thousand ? A few dozen - or less - who inspired Canaanite tribesmen ?
If we decide that we need everything right, if we could confirm the numbers leaving Egypt, spending 40 years in the Sinai, invading and conquering Canaan then proving that would do a good deal to prop up the accuracy of the Bible. Maybe it wouldn't be good evidence for God, but it would be something (those numbers are impressive). If we add in evidence for the Plagues - and especially for the Hebrews being spared the death of the firstborn ten I'd say that we had something worth paying attention to, even if it fell short of proof.
But we don't have that. We don't have the depopulation of Egypt. We don't have a huge tribal confederation spending 40 years in Sinai, as a unit. We don't even have an outside people coming in and conquering Canaan - the Israelite ancestors seem to be as Canaanite as their enemies. And if we can find poor matches for parts of the story even they don't fit together.
But if we go for some smaller event, a few thousand Israelites at most then it seems that we don't have much evidence supporting Judaism or Christianity there. And we don't even have evidence for that. It seems that the Exodus is at best a distorted memory of historical events, events either too far from the story for us to reliably identify them or too small to leave traces we can find today.
Perhaps we should be asking if the failure of the Exodus story is significant evidence against the Christian of Judaic God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 5:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by frako, posted 12-07-2010 6:28 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 34 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 6:31 PM PaulK has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 33 of 56 (595273)
12-07-2010 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
12-07-2010 6:11 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
Perhaps we should be asking if the failure of the Exodus story is significant evidence against the Christian of Judaic God.
Nope sadly one cannot disprove gods tough it would be/is grate evidence for the bible not being infallible, or wholly inspired by god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2010 6:11 PM PaulK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 56 (595274)
12-07-2010 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
12-07-2010 6:11 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
I think the question of what the Exodus is really depends on what the evidence shows.
In all the years we have been discussing this, the sum of evidence has been zilch.
But for this thread I am willing to close my eyes real tight and really truly belief in fairies. I believe, I believe.
So three basic questions.
If we did find some evidence, for example a chariot wheel, is there any way to connect that to a particular even like the Exodus?
And if we did find some evidence that something like the story happened, does that add more support to there being some Judaic God than the fact of Troy adds the existence of Zeus and Hera and Aphrodite and Eris and Athena?
And the third question, would verification of the Exodus add any weight or support to unrelated biblical fables and stories. Would the existence of Troy lend weight and support to the veracity of the Odyssey?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2010 6:11 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2010 7:01 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 35 of 56 (595282)
12-07-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
12-07-2010 6:31 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
quote:
If we did find some evidence, for example a chariot wheel, is there any way to connect that to a particular even like the Exodus?
If the event happened as described we shouldn't have to worry about dealing with small scraps of evidence. That was one of the points I made. If we had the big pieces we could use our knowledge of those to fit the little pieces into the story. But we don't have them - and because we don't have them the little pieces don't matter. The absence of the big pieces of evidence - evidence which must be there if the story is literally true - is enough to sink any real hope that anything we can find could be evidence for God, even if we could connect it to whatever real events might underly the story (if any do).
quote:
And if we did find some evidence that something like the story happened, does that add more support to there being some Judaic God than the fact of Troy adds the existence of Zeus and Hera and Aphrodite and Eris and Athena?
And again this is a point that I have answered. If it is merely something like the story then no, it does not help much. If the story were demonstrated to be literally true - even restricted to things we might hope to be able to support archaeologically or historically - e.g. a major depopulation of Egypt, mainly through the vanishing of a Semitic underclass, mass graves from the same period - of Egyptians only. the death of the Pharoah's heir and more. But we don't have that. We have an absence of the evidence that should be there.
quote:
And the third question, would verification of the Exodus add any weight or support to unrelated biblical fables and stories. Would the existence of Troy lend weight and support to the veracity of the Odyssey?
Maybe. The Exodus is if anything more testable through history and archaeology than the fall of Troy - the period and the location and the scale contribute to that. If the Bible were shown to be highly accurate there (and it would have to be more accurate than the Illiad has been shown to be !) then we should be more inclined to trust stories of subsequent events, especially if they could be shown to come from the same author. The support might be weak (since there are many other considerations) but it would count for something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 6:31 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 56 (595287)
12-07-2010 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
12-07-2010 5:41 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
And I await someone showing how part two might get confirmed.
Well, all the physically-confirmable parts of the story involving God can be broken down the same way: (1) X happens; (2) God is claimed to have made X happen. We can, in theory, prove all the part ones, but that says nothing about the part twos; we'd still have to prove them independently, and that leads us to the problem you hinted at in Message 3: 'how do we know we know...'; well, when it comes to proving God, we can't and we don't. Proving the provable parts of Exodus doesn't fix that problem. We're still left no closer to the answer than when we started.
BUT, the question of the thread is: Would confirmation of the "Biblical Exodus" add any support for God? Since part one must be true for each part two to be true, then proving part one makes part two a possibility at the very least; I'd say, then, that confirming the Biblical Exodus (the references to God excluded) would 'add support for God', at least the God of the Exodus. Proving something possible that wasn't thought possible before, I think, is a way of adding support, even if just a little.
Though, no, it still doesn't confirm anything about God.
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 5:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 8:08 PM Jon has replied
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2010 8:27 PM Jon has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 56 (595288)
12-07-2010 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jon
12-07-2010 8:01 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
Does it provide any more evidence for the Judaic god than the existence of the city Troy provides for Zeus, Athena, Hera, Aphrodite or Eris?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 12-07-2010 8:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 12-07-2010 9:06 PM jar has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 38 of 56 (595293)
12-07-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jon
12-07-2010 8:01 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
BUT, the question of the thread is: Would confirmation of the "Biblical Exodus" add any support for God? Since part one must be true for each part two to be true, then proving part one makes part two a possibility at the very least; I'd say, then, that confirming the Biblical Exodus (the references to God excluded) would 'add support for God', at least the God of the Exodus. Proving something possible that wasn't thought possible before, I think, is a way of adding support, even if just a little.
Maybe so, but how could we ever hope to identify such evidence? Let's assume the biblical Exodus was real. 4000+- years of weathering, nomadic tribes, marauding armies (ancient and modern) would hopelessly obliterate any signs and contaminate anything that would have remained.
Tents, poles, rope, clothing, anything of an organic nature could be expected to wither away after all this time, even in a desert. Pottery shards and metallurgy would be good ones if it wasn't for the fact that the Israelites were not the only wanderers of the Sinai. The Bedouin had criss-crossed every inch of the area for hundreds of years either side of the various proposed Exodus time-lines leaving their own scatterings of pottery and other debris. Can anyone tell the difference between a shard of an Israelite pot made of the desert clays and a Bedouin shard of the same source and age? Can the mostly disintegrated remains of a tent pole be identified as Israelite vs Bedouin?
I wouldn't think a wandering mass of 2 million would stop wandering long enough to erect much in the way of stone structures that might endure the ensuing ages. I would think we would have found such settlements by now, which would, in themselves, put the question of the biblical rendition of the Exodus in doubt anyway, so that's a non-starter.
The Israelites stayed for one year at Mt. Sinai before they pissed-off Moses, which pissed-off God, and thus ensued the 40 years of wandering. This might be a good place to erect some stone structures that could have survived 4000 years. Problem here is that the A'raab, the cultural forerunners of the Arabs, were in the same area doing just that at several sites at the same time. The remains are collapsed dry-laid stone walls ravaged by millennia. There's more than one of them. If one such wall were Israelite at some disputed Mt. Sinai site, no one can tell.
So if the Exodus wandering is true all the evidence has been either obliterated or contaminated by other peoples' activity to the point where nothing remains.
There is no evidence other than the one story that any such Exodus wandering was a reality.
Join this with two other facts:
Egyptian artifacts, which document everything from conquests and lovers' trysts to household shopping lists, say not one word about the most devastating series of plagues in quick succession to ever befall the kingdom.
The supposed Israelite population involved some 600,000 armed men thus having nothing to fear from an Egyptian army known at the time to be 1/30th this size.
The Exodus did not happen as the bible rendered.
Now, on to the OP.
But the key question is that even if we're able to reach some rough agreements about dates, events, travel routes, number of people, how does one get from "the Exodus happened" to "God exists"?
Regardless of the above, if we assume the Exodus did happen, then the plagues that punished the Egyptians into opening the Exodus must be assumed to have happened as well, and that includes the last plague, the Death of the Firstborn, with its miraculous passover of the houses where the lambs blood had been smeared on the lintel. Assumptions suck, but there we are.
If these (ick!) assumptions are made then, in my opinion, there would have been some rather unusual spooky intelligent action in play to pull it off. Something outside the usual experience of physics by which we know this world operates. This type of thing, in juxtaposition with the quick succession of the other plagues, defies rational explanation and must delve into an absurd confluence of events to reach rational justification. Under these assumptions, supernatural becomes more parsimonious than any set of convoluted natural rational.
This would not, however, prove that the god conceived by today's fundy christian is a reality. But it would lend credence to the existence of some force, some intelligent thing we could describe as supernatural. These caveats do not affect the theistic logic, however. So Exodus=My kind of God instead of Exodus=Some Unexplained Supernatural Intelligence is their conclusion.
For may part, I thank God (any God, pick one) that none of it appears to be real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 12-07-2010 8:01 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 12-07-2010 8:51 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 39 of 56 (595296)
12-07-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by AZPaul3
12-07-2010 8:27 PM


don't knock archaeology until you've tried it
AZPaul3 writes:
Maybe so, but how could we ever hope to identify such evidence? Let's assume the biblical Exodus was real. 4000+- years of weathering, nomadic tribes, marauding armies (ancient and modern) would hopelessly obliterate any signs and contaminate anything that would have remained.
i do not think this is the right approach. while finding remains is unlikely, it is not impossible. for example:
Tents, poles, rope, clothing, anything of an organic nature could be expected to wither away after all this time, even in a desert. Pottery shards and metallurgy would be good ones if it wasn't for the fact that the Israelites were not the only wanderers of the Sinai. The Bedouin had criss-crossed every inch of the area for hundreds of years either side of the various proposed Exodus time-lines leaving their own scatterings of pottery and other debris. Can anyone tell the difference between a shard of an Israelite pot made of the desert clays and a Bedouin shard of the same source and age? Can the mostly disintegrated remains of a tent pole be identified as Israelite vs Bedouin?
yes. there are no bedouin remains of the same age, as the bedouin are a modern group of people. however, even assuming you meant something like "canaanite", the answer remains, yes. there are ways. inscriptions are a big hint -- anything that talks about yahweh is probably related to the israelites. anything that said "moshe" or "aharon" or "yehoshua" of the right time and place. really any inscription leading us to believe that some people related to the people in the bible were there at the time.
other remains could easily be left as well. the great thing about deserts is that they can just as easily preserve things as they can destroy. the earliest egyptian mummies were simply buried in the desert sands. we could easily find things like grave sites, garbage dumps, etc.
the old mantra is that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
except that sometimes it is. the problem isn't so much that we can't find these types of things in the sinai desert. we can't find them anywhere. and if we did, it wouldn't fit with what we already know from the evidence we do have. but the simple textual evidence is that the exodus was a story invented relatively late into first temple period.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2010 8:27 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 56 (595297)
12-07-2010 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
12-07-2010 8:08 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
Does it provide any more evidence for the Judaic god than the existence of the city Troy provides for Zeus, Athena, Hera, Aphrodite or Eris?
It provides support for the God of the Exodus in as much as making possible that god's existence. And yes, the same can be said for the Zeus of the Iliad. Granted, the support provided is minimal and not overly significant, but it is more than what was there before. For example:
There was a 'God who did X' (where X is something that does not contain a reference to 'God')
If we can find evidence that X never happened, then it disproves the existence of the 'God who did X'. If we find evidence that X did happen, then it provides support for the 'God who did X'though, admittedly, not much. Before finding that X happened, it is unknown whether the 'God who did X' is possible or not. Finding that X happened, then, makes the 'God who did X' a possibility; I'd say this is an example of adding support.
And, of course, you can replace 'God' with anything, and X with anything as well (so long as X does not contain a reference to 'God' or whatever takes its place).
Jon

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 8:08 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 9:28 PM Jon has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 41 of 56 (595299)
12-07-2010 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
12-07-2010 9:06 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
Jon writes:
If we can find evidence that X never happened, then it disproves the existence of the 'God who did X'. If we find evidence that X did happen, then it provides support for the 'God who did X'though, admittedly, not much. Before finding that X happened, it is unknown whether the 'God who did X' is possible or not. Finding that X happened, then, makes the 'God who did X' a possibility; I'd say this is an example of adding support.
And, of course, you can replace 'God' with anything, and X with anything as well (so long as X does not contain a reference to 'God' or whatever takes its place).
Harry Potter built the Eiffel Tower.
Flying Speghetti Monsters built the Eiffel Tower.
Unicorns built the Eiffel Tower.
Yeah - they are all possibilities now.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide and off-topic banner; Change subtitle.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Undo previous edit - See here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 12-07-2010 9:06 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 9:35 PM Panda has replied
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 12-07-2010 10:41 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 56 (595300)
12-07-2010 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Panda
12-07-2010 9:28 PM


Try to be serious folk.
How can a piece of evidence be connected to the Biblical Exodus?
How could a chariot wheel be shown to be connected to the specific army mentioned in the story?
Would we need to know the characteristics of a the Egyptian chariots for a particular era?
To know that would we need to know precisely which Pharaoh?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 9:28 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 9:46 PM jar has not replied
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 12-08-2010 2:44 AM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 12-08-2010 9:53 AM jar has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 43 of 56 (595302)
12-07-2010 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
12-07-2010 9:35 PM


Re: Try to be serious folk.
jar writes:
How can a piece of evidence be connected to the Biblical Exodus?
How could a chariot wheel be shown to be connected to the specific army mentioned in the story?
Would we need to know the characteristics of a the Egyptian chariots for a particular era?
To know that would we need to know precisely which Pharaoh?
Archeologists are the people to do this: they have the tools and the know-how.
They would be able to date and connect artifacts found in the area.
They would be able to prove/disprove the exodus event.
But they would not be able to find any evidience for a god, unless they found evidence that a miracle had occurred.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 9:35 PM jar has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 56 (595309)
12-07-2010 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Panda
12-07-2010 9:28 PM


Re: What is the Exodus?
Yeah - they are all possibilities now.
What do you mean by 'they'?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Check out Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Panda, posted 12-07-2010 9:28 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 45 of 56 (595326)
12-08-2010 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
12-07-2010 9:35 PM


Re: Try to be serious folk.
quote:
To know that would we need to know precisely which Pharaoh?
Which wouldn't be a problem if we had the big evidence, as I explained above.
It doesn't really answer the question to say that the evidence dictates what "the Exodus" was, because we only know that it left no marks on history and archaeology that we can identify. We have to answer the question starting with a notion of what "the Exodus" was, and looking at the evidence we could get from that. Which is what I've been doing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-07-2010 9:35 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024