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Author Topic:   Life on other Planets?
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 3 of 160 (594313)
12-03-2010 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bolder-dash
12-02-2010 11:32 PM


Probably

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-02-2010 11:32 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 76 of 160 (594590)
12-03-2010 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Bolder-dash
12-03-2010 10:36 PM


Re: Huh?????
Hello Bolder-dash,
Imagine all you knew of was the Atlantic ocean. You find that it teems with life. Then one day you come across another ocean. It has similar characteristics to the Atlantic. You might therefore suppose that it is likely to also have life in it.
Then somebody asks you if you think there's life on the sun. Any life that could live on the sun would be completely different than any life that you know of, so the existence of life in the ocean has no bearing on whether there might be life on the sun.
Similarly, we know that the earth is one out of a countless number of planets out there. Given similar conditions elsewhere, there is no reason why we should expect there not be life out there. Whereas "metaphysical life" is about as evidenced as is life on the sun. Just because we know that life can thrive under earth-like conditions, this gives no credence to either sun-life or spirits.
You seem opposed to the existence of life anywhere but earth, yet you do not find it difficult to believe in some form of life that is completely un-evidenced. What basis do you have to believe in anything "meta-physical"?
Even if you could show that the universe had been "ordered" by some intelligence, the only known source of intelligence is physical life, and thus you'd only be making a case for some advanced physical being. Yet that is exactly what you oppose!
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
PS. And by the way, I'm not a real big fan of sci-fi. Most of the time they get the science too wrong and ruin the suspension of disbelief for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-03-2010 10:36 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 12:36 AM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 79 of 160 (594610)
12-04-2010 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 12:36 AM


Re: Huh?????
Bolder-dash writes:
What you are trying to call evidence for anything is actually just speculation.
Why is the existence of physical life not evidence that there could be more physical life? Obviously it's not proof that there's life out there. All it says is that there could be life out there. If life is possible here, even under inhospitable terrestrial conditions, obviously it would be possible in other places under identical conditions.
Bolder-dash writes:
First you can speculate that abiogenesis is possible without having the slightest bit of evidence that it is. What makes you think this is even possible?
Even if I didn't think there was a good explanation for how life could have begun by natural means, and even if I then took the enormous leap of faith to believe in a completely unevidenced meta-physical creator, that still would not be a case against extra-terrestrial life. Surely a creator not bound by physical laws could have created life wherever he wanted, throughout the cosmos. With magic, suddenly life becomes even more probable, and even more likely to be found elsewhere.
I'm surprised that you'd limit a vast creative intelligence, capable of creating the universe, to creating life on a single planet. No matter what my position on the existence of magical creators (I'm an agnostic by the way), the evidence at hand would still suggest that life is probably out there.
Bolder-dash writes:
Anything other than your faith?
What faith?
Bolder-dash writes:
Trying to make an argument that there is more evidence for alien life than for a force that created the cosmos, that created gravity, and energy, and atomic forces, and heat and cold and thermo dynamics....just is not a very strong argument
First you'd have to show why these things necessarily had to be created. Gravity is extremely simple. As are energy, atomic forces, heat, cold and thermo dynamics. All of these are the outcomes of some extremely simple properties of the universe. Heat and cold are merely differences in potential and kinetic energies between particles (I think), and the laws of thermodynamics were created by people to describe how heat behaves.
There's no need to postulate a creator until there's at least some reason to assume anything had to be created.
Bolder-dash writes:
In order to believe that you have to believe that all of the forces of the universe just poofed out by arbitrary chaos. That's a big stretch.
Not as big a stretch as postulating the existence of an even more complex meta-physical being. (By the way, I don't believe that everything was "poofed" out of "arbitrary chaos")
Bolder-dash writes:
It is an argument that can only be made by someone who WANTS a particular outcome.
I would be fine with an Intelligent Creator if I had any evidence whatsoever to believe in one. After all, I believed in one my whole life, up until a little while ago.
Bolder-dash writes:
Why is your speculation that it 'must be' valid only in this instance and not in others where it is not convenient.
But I'm not making any exceptions. If there were evidence of meta-physical beings on earth, and if they were shown to be capable of creating and altering the universe, then I should have less reservations about believing in one.
Bolder-dash writes:
It is really an indefensible position, but as I said, I can understand where it comes from.
Really? From agnosticism? Do explain.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.
Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 12:36 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 80 of 160 (594612)
12-04-2010 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 12:36 AM


Re: Huh?????
Alright, let me just emphasize one point from my last post.
Let's pretend I agree with you. There's a creator, he created the whole universe, including life on earth. I'll give you that for the sake of argument.
I would still say this implies that there's life elsewhere. Obviously, said creator created this planet with the intent of later putting life on it. We can also see numerous other planets out there that He/She/It must have created. Ergo, it's a reasonable conclusion that the creator put them there for a reason, and reasonable to suggest that since He/She/It put life on this planet, that He/She/It had similar intentions for the billions of other planets out there.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 12:36 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:24 AM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 82 of 160 (594616)
12-04-2010 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:24 AM


Re: Huh?????
Well do you?! I think it's common practice on this forum to put forth one's own opinion when one poses a new topic. I'm surprised that admin didn't make you outline your own position on this question before promoting the topic.
Once you've put forth your own estimate on the probability of life on other planets and justified it, THEN we can compare who the evidence most strongly supports.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:24 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:57 AM Meldinoor has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 87 of 160 (594622)
12-04-2010 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Bolder-dash
12-04-2010 1:57 AM


Re: Huh?????
Bolder-dash writes:
I don't believe there are tigers living at the bottom of the ocean, just because I have seen tigers elsewhere.
That's an obvious straw-man, Bolder-dash. Tigers could not possibly live at the bottom of the sea, because they would drown. Neither was I suggesting that life exists anywhere where it could not exist, as in my example with the sun.
Similarly, cotton-candy machines are only built by humans, for humans, and therefore they can't exist on Pluto. I also strongly doubt that there's life on Pluto, because the environment would probably not be conducive for any kind of life. When I say that there could be life out there, I'm not saying it could be everywhere. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Bolder-dash writes:
Do I think that gravity is there just because it happens to be there?
And what would be there instead? What explanation for the origin of gravity do you have that could not easily be dismissed in the same way? Do you think God is there just because he happens to be there? If yes, why is God more probable than gravity? If no, where did God come from?
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-04-2010 1:57 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 129 of 160 (594929)
12-05-2010 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Granny Magda
12-05-2010 5:04 PM


Re: I Have Questions
Nope to all of those.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Granny Magda, posted 12-05-2010 5:04 PM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-06-2010 6:19 PM Meldinoor has not replied

  
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