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Author Topic:   Creationists Turn
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 61 of 63 (54176)
09-06-2003 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by dragonstyle18
09-06-2003 6:06 AM


1. They are too busy fighting evolution instead of coming up with a model.
So what you're saying is these people have so little knowledge of how science works they don't realize the best--- and only--- way to "fight evolution" is to come up with a better working model of their own?
2. Also because the scientific community has set themselves up for methodological naturalism which basically states that anything not testable must therefore not exist. Because of this the scientific community has cultivated themselves to beg the question to which the answer will always be naturalism.
As has already been stated, this is a strawman. The only thing the scientific community has done is realize methodological naturalism is the best method humans (with their limited sense range) will ever have in a quest for knowledge about the world. While it may cut heavy against theories involving entities beyond detection, that is necessary rather than allowing the chaos which follows accepting such entities.
In fact, forget about a creationist model for speciation, please tell me what a creationist replacement for methodological naturalism is. I have read all of the bitching creationists make about MN, but have seen no credible replacement method. Dembski has tried of course, but it is a self-serving methodology which allows deviation from MN only as long as biblical scripture has something to say about it.
Here's a big example for you to address...
You correctly outlined mathematical possibilities for extra dimensional planes of existence. Yet you have done nothing to show how any other deity or deities are excluded from the scenario you presented.
After delivering your creationist methodology for acquiring knowledge, explain how it has, or could allow you to identify the Judeo-Christo-Islamo-Mormano God from any other extradimensional entities which may exist.
If anything it would seem faiths who's doctrines includes mention of extra-dimensional existence would suddenly gain an edge over Scripture (which mentions nothing about extradimensions at all).
Looks like you got some work cut out for you. I look forward to your reply.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by dragonstyle18, posted 09-06-2003 6:06 AM dragonstyle18 has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 62 of 63 (56023)
09-17-2003 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by defenderofthefaith
08-31-2003 3:04 AM


So long as the chambers developed first I don't really see
a problem.
Perhaps other beetles have ejection organs ... that may
shed some light on the matter.
The problem with these arguments on IC is that one must NOT
assume that the end function was at all intended.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by defenderofthefaith, posted 08-31-2003 3:04 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 63 of 63 (56122)
09-17-2003 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Mammuthus
09-02-2003 7:05 AM


More detail, for a layperson:
Bombardier Beetles and the Argument of Design
Step by step:
1. Quinones are produced by epidermal cells for tanning the cuticle. This exists commonly in arthropods. [Dettner, 1987]
2. Some of the quinones don't get used up, but sit on the epidermis, making the arthropod distasteful. (Quinones are used as defensive secretions in a variety of modern arthropods, from beetles to millipedes. [Eisner, 1970])
3. Small invaginations develop in the epidermis between sclerites (plates of cuticle). By wiggling, the insect can squeeze more quinones onto its surface when they're needed.
4. The invaginations deepen. Muscles are moved around slightly, allowing them to help expel the quinones from some of them. (Many ants have glands similar to this near the end of their abdomen. [Holldobler & Wilson, 1990, pp. 233-237])
5. A couple invaginations (now reservoirs) become so deep that the others are inconsequential by comparison. Those gradually revert to the original epidermis.
6. In various insects, different defensive chemicals besides quinones appear. (See Eisner, 1970, for a review.) This helps those insects defend against predators which have evolved resistance to quinones. One of the new defensive chemicals is hydroquinone.
7. Cells that secrete the hydroquinones develop in multiple layers over part of the reservoir, allowing more hydroquinones to be produced. Channels between cells allow hydroquinones from all layers to reach the reservior.
8. The channels become a duct, specialized for transporting the chemicals. The secretory cells withdraw from the reservoir surface, ultimately becoming a separate organ.
9. This stage -- secretory glands connected by ducts to reservoirs -- exists in many beetles. The particular configuration of glands and reservoirs that bombardier beetles have is common to the other beetles in their suborder. [Forsyth, 1970]
10. Muscles adapt which close off the reservior, thus preventing the chemicals from leaking out when they're not needed.
11. Hydrogen peroxide, which is a common by-product of cellular metabolism, becomes mixed with the hydroquinones. The two react slowly, so a mixture of quinones and hydroquinones get used for defense.
12. Cells secreting a small amount of catalases and peroxidases appear along the output passage of the reservoir, outside the valve which closes it off from the outside. These ensure that more quinones appear in the defensive secretions. Catalases exist in almost all cells, and peroxidases are also common in plants, animals, and bacteria, so those chemicals needn't be developed from scratch but merely concentrated in one location.
13. More catalases and peroxidases are produced, so the discharge is warmer and is expelled faster by the oxygen generated by the reaction. The beetle Metrius contractus provides an example of a bombardier beetle which produces a foamy discharge, not jets, from its reaction chambers. The bubbling of the foam produces a fine mist. [Eisner et al., 2000]
14. The walls of that part of the output passage become firmer, allowing them to better withstand the heat and pressure generated by the reaction.
15. Still more catalases and peroxidases are produced, and the walls toughen and shape into a reaction chamber. Gradually they become the mechanism of today's bombardier beetles.
16. The tip of the beetle's abdomen becomes somewhat elongated and more flexible, allowing the beetle to aim its discharge in various directions.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Mammuthus, posted 09-02-2003 7:05 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
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