Simple evidence for ID

That's certainly not what the Bible says. LOL

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Double post.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 05-16-2005 10:49 PM

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

Hi EZ and Jar. Read Genesis 3:22-24 where you read that if Adam were left in the garden he'd eat of the tree of life and live forever, but because of the curse of his sin, he was banned from the garden and the tree of eternal life.

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

Well Buz, I sure don't see an connection between the curse and the Tree of Life. What is true in the Genesis Myth is that GOD feared that Adam would eat of the Tree of Life and become like GOD and so chased hime out of the Garden.But it's only part or the myth and certainly no indication of design as far as humans were concerned. In fact it would only be another clear example that there is no design.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I've been in and out of evangelical churches for half a century and I had never even heard of that concept until recently.Surely it is not a widespread belief that there was no death before The Fall^TM.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Not necessarily. Remember that God has free will. If God decided to not create perfect versions of human beings, then he certainly had every right not to create perfect versions of human beings.One can only speculate why God decided not to make everything perfect for us.Gen 3:17 "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"Gen 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"Pretty self explanatory there.Another possible reason is that God wanted us to know good. But in order to what is good, we must also have to know what is bad. Without what is bad, we wouldn't be able to appreciate or recognize what is good.Here is something from my own experience. I occasionally play starcraft online against other people. Because I play against other people, sometimes (very rare though) I don't win and sometimes I am beaten badly. Why don't I play against the computer knowing that I can win all the time? Why don't I play against newbies players? Because whenever I win against a really good player I feel good! One time I met this guy (username cruelintentions) who is probably the best player on battlenet. He and I had a match of 5 games. I lost the first 4 games and managed to win the last. You know how good I felt after I won that last game?Sure, it sucks for the guy that (I wanna use the word looses... loses but I don't know which one to use so...) doesn't win.Again, the question is why don't I just play against newbies or the computer to win all the time? PS I'm one of the best players on battlenet. So, it's getting increasingly difficult to find players worth playing against.

So Buz got banned again for something in this thread? I have to say I can't see why. The discussion had gone in this direction and he was right on topic. Buz is absolutely right, after they disobeyed they were subject to death which means that before it they were not. God had said that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they WOULD die, showing that death had not occurred before that. Apparently they had the tree of life they could eat from as long as they were in favor with God, but after their sin, eating from that would only have confirmed them in the condition of the devils, forever alienated from God, so God sends them from Eden to prevent that from happening.This definitely has implications for evolutionism/creationism. I don't see how it helps ID a whole lot since they accept great ages, but basically the idea is that we were created immortal and sin brought mortality ("the wages of sin is death"). Death is NOT normal and natural. Sin and death have been working in all life on this planet since the Fall and the effect is cumulative from generation to generation, one Biblical indication of which is the gradual decrease in the length of the human lifespan after Adam, which is chronicled in Genesis 5. Finally God fixed the human lifespan at an average of 70 years, but even through the time of Abraham and the patriarchs and 400 years later, Moses, the span was well over 100 years -- at least for some.There should be plenty of evidence for this gradual deterioration in our physical health from generation to generation. It should be recognizable in the genome. I believe it's certainly recognizable in the increase in diseases -- I understand that the incidence of cancer for instance has increased dramatically over the last hundred years. You seem to prefer the devil's word over God's. It was the devil who said that, not God. God said it would bring death upon them and that's what happened. Eve believed the devil's lie that it would make them like God, but it only brought death.The only connection between the curse and the tree of life, as Buz said, is that God didn't want them eating of that tree which would only make the curse irrevocable. He planned to send a Savior instead, who would take the curse upon Himself and at the final Redemption restore the tree of life to a cleansed humanity.

I'm sorry. That was a facetious remark.
It didn't warrant a serious response. Well I like to play pool, but it can be hard to find a good opponent, so I know exactly what you mean. Tough competition is what it takes to improve. Evolution works the same way.I gather you mean to imply that God made us imperfect so we would have to strive to improve ourselves.
I would say that, if there is a God, you are probably right.
Because from my 'naturalistic' perspective (here's a word I never seem to use outside of this forum) there is no such thing as perfection. It is an abstract anthropocentric ideal without any biological relevance. No matter how well-adapted a species to its niche, that niche is a dynamic hyperspace of selective forces that will *always* be subject to change over time in one way or another. The species must then change also, or become extinct. Perfection is unattainable in evolution.This message has been edited by EZscience, 05-18-2005 12:09 PM

Hi Faith! If death is not natural but a consequence of original sin, then why do all animals die? Only humans sinned, and indeed only humans are capable of sin, because only humans have souls (as I understand the traditional Christian view). Why, then, do animals such as trees, plants, fish and cockroaches sensesce (get old), get diseases, and ultimately die? Are you suggesting that cockroaches and geraniums also ate of the apple? Quite the opposite, in fact. Human health is improved dramatically over the last century or so.Data from http://www.losangelesalmanac.com/topics/Vitals/vi07a.htmPercent of children who died before first birthday in LA county:1920: 7.36
2002: 0.55data from http://www.ssha.org/...ite/presidential_addresses/haines.pdfNumber of deaths per year per 100,000 people from TB, England and Wales:1861: 249
1964: 2.54Number of deaths per year per 100,000 people from infectious diseases other than TB in Japan:1899: 512
1964: 45To me, it looks like illness and death is perfectly natural, which is why improvements in nutrition, medicine and public health programmes result in these amazing figures.Best wishes,MickThis message has been edited by mick, 05-18-2005 01:35 PMThis message has been edited by mick, 05-18-2005 01:36 PM

There is an increase in diseases? What does NIH say about that?Perhaps there is an increase in cancer because we've found ways of surviving other diseases/ailments....more people are living longer....cancer becomes more prevalent by default.

All this is based on scripture. Scripture says God cursed the whole creation for our sake, and the New Testament speaks of the whole creation "groaning" in waiting for the Redemption of humanity. Some think animals died before the Fall, but I think nothing died before the Fall, that all death entered with the Fall. The first death of animals was God's killing them to make skins to cover Adam and Eve, which is considered by some to be the first animal sacrifice for sin, which was practiced for millennia throughout the world, (as well as human sacrifice, which God condemns, though it shows an intuitive understanding that sin requires a great expiation even though the death of a sinner can't accomplish that) and was formalized in the laws of Israel, ending only with the once-and-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This is also true, but I think this is illusory overall. Our health has improved mostly by artificial means, through all kinds of medical interventions and drugs, but also improved nutrition, knowledge of healthy practices etc, which we wouldn't have without the luxuries we have here in the wealthy West.I think our medical expertise masks the fact that our natural bodies have deteriorated overall and are subject to many more diseases than ever before and more horrific diseases too. Improved health practices and medical interventions may compensate for this for quite some time, and even outdistance it, but I believe the underlying fact is that our natural life is continuing to deteriorate. Where there used to be more natural vigor there is now medical help. It's a good thing we have it because we need it more and more.

quote:

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Data from http://www.losangelesalmanac.com/topics/Vitals/vi07a.htm

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Percent of children who died before first birthday in LA county:
1920: 7.36
2002: 0.55
data from http://www.ssha.org/...ite/presidential_addresses/haines.pdf
Number of deaths per year per 100,000 people from TB, England and Wales:
1861: 249
1964: 2.54
Number of deaths per year per 100,000 people from infectious diseases other than TB in Japan:
1899: 512
1964: 45
To me, it looks like illness and death is perfectly natural, which is why improvements in nutrition, medicine and public health programmes result in these amazing figures.

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Sure, but again I believe this masks the horrible fact that overall there is an underlying natural deterioration.

That would be a matter to be determined by statistics I suppose, but since there wouldn't be much in the way of statistics before a hundred years ago the question wouldn't be too easy to settle.I think the problem is easily obscured by our medical knowledge and our more supportive living circumstances. Heavier death tolls in the past most likely reflect the lack of knowledge though they might in fact have had much more natural resistance than we have. In our time we may be staving off massive epidemics by our medical knowledge that without it would wipe out far more of us than previous generations, because of having less natural resistance than former generations had. It would be a hard thing to sort out and all the harder if such an underlying pattern isn't taken into account as a possibility.Of course all this fits in with ideas about genetic deterioration which has been debated a lot here, with the evo side insisting it's not happening. I guess that awaits further study.

So, what did the herbivores eat?You do know that plants are alive?Brian.

Hi Faith, Our health has improved by artificial means? What does that mean? Our health has improved entirely by natural means. It is not "artificial" to wash one's hands or have clean drinking water.Remember that mortality is meant to be a punishment. Why would God make a punishment that is amenable to medical treatment, and can actually be eradicated (i.e. smallpox)? It is interesting that the means to eradicate disease (secular humanism and science) are exactly those that you would consider unGodly. What horrible fact are you talking about here? The quoted mortality rates show that there is NO underlying deterioration, in fact there is an improvement. You appear to be proposing a gradual deterioration in our health that results in less chance of us being sick or dying. If that is a deterioration in health, then I'm all for it!

I'm not really clear what this thread was aiming for although I went back and read the first page of posts and skimmed through some of the rest, but I thought I'd venture my own view and hope it's in the ballpark.I think actual observable reality reflects the revelations of Genesis: On the one hand God created all things "good" and made man in His own image, the image of moral/spiritual/intellectual perfection at least. On the other hand man disobeyed and was cut off from communion with his Creator and became subject to disease and death.I think that to judge from nature itself what we have is something that suggests a perfection that has been marred, which fits the picture given in Genesis. We can see a design in all things that is staggering in its minute intricacies and functionality and adaptability and yet somehow broken and diseased, not quite working up to its implicit promise, subject always to deformity and death.Looking at nature we see every degree of physical, moral, spiritual and intellectual perfection AND deformity, beauty AND ugliness, health AND disease etc.We have an apparent implicit perfection and we have the impression that something has twisted and deformed that original perfection.Creation and Fall.