Mysterious Questions, Mysterious Answers and Supernaturalism

How would you tell the difference between the two? Of course, that in no way stops all further investigation. I am not even sure I see how any answer whatsoever could so stop further investigation. Well of course we shall! There are, in fact, several polite requests for clarification currently waiting to be addressed.Jon

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Check out Apollo's Temple!

Well, I would say that there are many reasons: Stupidity
Some people are too stupid to 'understand the detail'. These types of people often avoid 'long words'. "Thor-did-it" is easier to remember than "Electrickery".
Boredom
Some people do not have enough interest to bother learning the details. "Someone-did-it" is an easy answer to a question they aren't interested in.
Busy
Some people do not have the time to learn the details.
Cognitive dissonance
Some people refuse to learn anything that will contradict their existing beliefs. "God-did-it" agrees with their old book.
Ignorance
Some people don't know that there are any details. Their family and culture raised them to believe that "Allah-did-it".
Lazy
Some people can't be bothered to learn anything.I expect the list goes on and on.I also think you have forgotten to factor in that everyone is stupid for a certain percentage of their life.
You should just try to keep the percentage down.
(Or in DB's case: see if it is possible to achieve over 100%.)

Okay then. After the multiple days of temoporary sittings that it took me to wade through this, I've come up with some questions.Let me preface with that I don't think your characterization of belief in mythical answers really fits my own beliefs, but I'll have a go anyways. Where is the danger here? And how is it much more dangerous?...Well shit, I can't find the quote I'm looking for, and I'm getting tired (maybe this is a good reason to not have so much text to dig through), but I don't think a mysterious answer necessarily halts all further questioning like you're protrary it as doing. Also, I don't hold my beliefs like you seem to think someone in my position does. E.g., I wouldn't say that god definately has a hand in evolution, but I would say that he could have. My belief that he might, isn't an end-of-the-road. My belief that he did isn't held so positively.Too, with things like beliefs in ghosts, we see these guys using EMF meters n'stuff so the mysterious answer of "it was a ghost" hasn't halted their further research, so... where does that fit in?

Well if they would say where the f&$# did these EMF come from, and then tested all the possible, plausible sources and found none or more probably found some then one might atcualy do some science. They are like kids ohh i have static on my radio it must be a ghost trying to comunicate whit me. Well thats it this house is haunted lets try it in the naighbours house.

I thought this was a good thread; I'd like to continue with it. I think one of the areas of confusion was in trying to determine what Rahvin considered to be a 'real answer'. It was discussed a few times the possibility that there may have been a conflation between 'real answer' and 'modern science-conforming answer'. Rahvin denied this, of course, but the confusion has not been laid to rest, in my mind.What I think would help, if Rahvin is still interested in this thread, is an example of a modern scientific theory/conclusion which might be suspect as a 'mysterious answer', and an explanation of why it might be 'mysterious'. Pointing to modern scientific theories/conclusions that fail the test of 'real answer', I think, would go a long way toward clearing up whether 'real answer' has been used synonymously with 'modern science-conforming answer'.Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Really?

Yes.Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Frankly Rahvin, I suggest that your whole premise is based on a straw man. You seem to assume for example that because someone believes that evolution is a guided process that they will see that as a final answer and see no need to delve further into the subject. That just isn't correct.Many Christians, such as Newton, Pascal and Mendel were involved in the birth of science.
No webpage found at provided URL: Christianity and the Birth of ScienceBeing a Christian doesn't seemed to have slowed Francis Collins down. Francis Collins didn't come from a Christian family but came to it as an adult. He calls DNA "the language of God" which of course was the title of his book.I would even contend that my faith makes me more curious about the natural world which I believe is God's handiwork.For example here is a quote from N T Wright.

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Talk of heaven and earth, though, comes to us mostly from the Bible; and in the Bible these are not two places, separated from each other by many miles, but two different dimensions of the total reality of the world.

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Here is a quote from the front cover of the November issue of Scientific American.

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Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter - An entire universe may be interwoven silently with our own

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As a Christian I have to say hmmmm. I wonder if there is a connection here. Maybe and maybe not. I’m really looking forward to see just what can be determined. I see science as a type of theology. As I said, it is wanting to learn about what I believe God has created which makes me all the more curious about things scientific.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

You quote-mined my reply... Since you blatantly avoided addressing the point I raised, I can only assume that you plan on continuing to behaving in a dishonest way.I hope Rahvin realises that you just want to play stupid games and ignores you.Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

What you quoted me saying had nothing to do with my opinion on the thread. It simply wasn't worthy of response.Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

It was your opinion of the thread.
You said it; it describes this thread; it is your opinion.I can see you are struggling to equivocate about something, but your opinion of this thread is everything to do with your opinion of this thread...obviously. Or you could not defend your dishonesty...
I am leaning towards the latter.

Whatever.Have anything worth contributing to the thread?Jon

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Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

Yes, I do.Here it is:
You are only here to play stupid games.
If this wasn't true then you could come up with something better than "Whatever".
If anyone expects you to debate with any honesty then they will be sorely disappointed.

It is interesting that you placed this topic in Faith/Belief. Lets continue this discussion. One could argue that Faith/Belief in general appeal to an emotional sense of satisfaction, however.On the other hand, God may well desire us as humans to ask questions and further our knowledge. Critics may argue that science and faith are incompatible. On the other hand, why would we even have a brain were we not expected to use it? I agree, but in defense of my faith I find that having no answers hampers my ability to explain my beliefs to others. Simply saying that I believe X because the Bible says this and such is a usual part of the process of explanation regarding my faith. To simply state that GOD if GOD exists is unknowable and that evidence and scientific methodology is all that we have to work with seems to me to at best describe a religion of doubt. Are you saying then that faith needs to be grounded in evidence and verification? Are you saying that mysterious answers actually hurt some peoples faith and belief? Thus do you mean that in explaining ones personal faith and belief with mysterious answers is, in your opinion, no explanation at all? In matters of education, I can agree with this assessment. Mysterious answers should not be used by teachers in any context regarding education. This in a nutshell frames our basic discussion and debate over teaching Biblical Creationism as opposed to evolutionary theory. However, in a Faith and Belief context, what if no real explanations exist?(Apart from the omnipotence of GOD?) Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I placed it here because "mysterious answers" describe mythology and supernatural hypotheses of all types. A person sees a phenomenon he doesn;t understand; he makes an attempt to explain that phenomenon, but while the explanation increases his confidence in his understanding of the phenomenon, he doesn;t really have any understanding at all. These sorts of explanations are very, very often what we think of as "supernatural." As we make better explanations of the phenomenon that actually allow us to make predictions about the phenomenon, the phenomenon is no longer considered "supernatural" and appears normal. You're missing the point.An increase in emotional satisfaction is irrelevant to the accuracy or utility of an explanation. An explanation either increases understanding of a phenomenon (ie, allows us to make more accurate predictions), or it does not. Our feelings on the matter are meaningless.Ruminations of what "God wants" are not relevant to this topic.Neither is the conflict between science and faith. You again seem to be missing the point, but your comment here is useful.If you have no answers then of course you're unable to offer an explanation. The problem I described in the OP is that, when faced with a phenomenon about which we are ignorant, human beings often attempt at uninformed pseudo-explanations that generate sufficient emotional satisfaction as to stop curiosity, but which in actual fact do not explain anything at all.When you "explain" lightning by invoking Thor, god of thunder, you haven't actually explained the phenomenon of lightning. The topic is not why you believe what you believe. The topic is mysterious questions, mysterious answers, and supernaturalism. I fail to see any actual argument in your response so far - you appear to be just writing a stream of consciousness regarding your own self-reflection, and so far it barely even touches on the actual topic. ...no. That would contradict the actual definition of "faith." I would suggest that peoplke should base their beliefs upon the best currently available objective evidence, but that in a nutshell is the rejection of faith. I'm saying that mysterious answers are not real answers at all.If you ask me why fire burns, and I tell you that flammable things contain phlogiston, and it is this substance that burns, do you actually understand why fire burns? Using that information, can you tell me what things will or will not burn, or for how long, or how hot?Phlogiston was a mysterious answer because it failed to actually explain that which prompted the question. Faith and belief are irrelevant in the way you're using the words here.Let me fix the question for you:

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do you mean that in explaining any phenomenon with mysterious answers is no explanation at all?

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Yes.Regardless of the source of the explanation (whether you think the explanation is true due to faith or empirical evidence), a mysterious answer doesn;t actually serve to explain anything at all.That's not just an opinion. An explanation is something that increases understanding. Mysterious answers increase our confidence in our understanding but do not increase our understanding.It's like that kid in school who thought he understood chemistry really well, and then flunked his chemistry exam. Mysterious answers make us feel like we have knowledge, but we don't. And I don;t just mean that we have answers that turn out to be wrong - I mean that, upon examination, it turns out that despite our confidence we cannot actually make predictions based on mysterious answers. They're meaningless and useless. In the OP I was speaking about the human condition. Our propensity toward formulating and being satisfied with useless non-answers is just one of many cognitive defects in the human mind. Somewhat. Certainly when it comes to the "how" of Creation, "God did it by magic" is a mysterious answer and is utterly useless, explaining nothing. ...that sentence doesn't seem to make sense. Can you explain?Let me try from a different angle.

quote:

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answer
[an-ser, ahn-] Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
a spoken or written reply or response to a question, request, letter, etc.:
He sent an answer to my letter promptly.
2.
a correct response to a question asked to test one's knowledge.
3.
an equivalent or approximation:
a singing group that tried to be the French answer to the Beatles.
4.
an action serving as a reply or response:
The answer was a volley of fire.
5.
a solution to a problem, especially in mathematics.
6.
a reply to a charge or accusation.
7.
Law. a pleading in which a party responds to his or her opponent's statement of position, especially the defendant's reply to the plaintiff's complaint.

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I've bolded the relevant definition of "answer," as we're talking about an answer to a mysterious question like "why does lightning happen."An answer to that question should let us better determine the conditions that make lightning more likely; we should be able to make new predictions about where, when, and ho frequently we should see this phenomenon. We may be able to make other, new predictions about related phenomenon like thunder.In ancient times people had no understanding of lightning; they gave mysterious answers like "Lightning is the great spark thrown when Thor strikes his might hammer Mjonir."This might make people feel like they understand lightning. But in reality, those people can no better predict anything about lightning than they could before they had that mysterious answer. The so-called answer provides no additional information. Thor's hammer can equally explain lightning in the open sky as in a cloudy sky as in an enclosed space. But this is not really an answer - it's a response, sure. but it's not a solution to the problem.An actual answer would give us more information. An actual answer is a solution to the problem of lightning; a theoretical framework that increases our actual understanding, not just our confidence. I'd suggest that, rather than accept a mysterious answer, I'd rather just say "I still don;t know; I'm going to continue investigating until I find a real explanation."