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Author Topic:   Golden Age of biblical principles?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 144 (590801)
11-09-2010 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ringo
11-09-2010 8:45 PM


Re: Decline Of The Golden Age
ringo writes:
Ecclesiastes disagrees with you. There's nothing new under the sun. There were never any good old days.
No, Ecclesiates does not disagree with me. It's a strawman. Ecclesiates is not prophetic relative to the end time decline of the Golden Age. Your quote mined phrase does not relate to specific timelines like a declining golden age.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 11-09-2010 8:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 11-09-2010 9:41 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 122 of 144 (590814)
11-09-2010 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Buzsaw
11-09-2010 8:59 PM


Re: Decline Of The Golden Age
Buzsaw writes:
No, Ecclesiates does not disagree with me. It's a strawman.
A strawman would be a misrepresentation of your position. If you think I've done that, point out where instead of slinging around words that you don't understand.
Similarly, if you think I've quote-mined Ecclesiastes, go ahead and point out where.
quote:
Ecc 1:9-10 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Your misunderstanding of prophecy doesn't change what it says.
And why don't you respond to the point of my post? How can you call improved equality a "decline"? How do you account for good Christians like Dr. King participating in what you call a "decline"?

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2010 8:59 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 144 (590823)
11-09-2010 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
11-09-2010 8:51 PM


Re: Decline Of The Golden Age
Dawn Bertot writes:
Today's reality is just like the one back then, the VAST majority of people were simply hard working, worshiping people.
Most people do not condone many of the actions of our government in an overt fashion, yet I will admit that often, we ignore the actions since we believe that they are necessary for our survival, even if they hurt other cultures or infringe on their rights.
jar writes:
The 1800 would be the period when the US, after signing a Treaty with the Kingdom of Hawaii invaded it and over threw the monarch. It would be the period of the Spanish American War when we invaded and took Puerto Rico. It would be when the US invaded Mexico and forced them to accept a treaty that gave the US what is now Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, California, Utah and parts of Colorado. It would be the period of the Indian Wars where the US not only took land from the Native Americans by force but also desecrated their Holy Places (which we continue to do today) but also outlawed and suppressed their religions and cultural practices.
I can't deny that this happened. Americans of that time (or this time) may argue that the Indians resisted moving out of the way, and we had to look out for our own first. This behavior of humanity throughout the ages is not limited to America alone, though because we became an empire, we often were aggressive in order to do so.
crashfrog writes:
The Constitution offers no right to be a racist, nor to engage in discrimination. The freedom to infringe on the freedom of others to move freely, engage in business, and work for a living is not a freedom guaranteed by the Constitution, regardless of your racist desires. The Civil Rights Act expanded freedom - it did not contract it. There's no such freedom as "the right to discriminate."
I often wonder whether the whole world could live under the U.S. constitution without exploiting or taking advantage of some class of people. (the stupid, maybe? )
I support my union precisely because they limit the power of the company to do what it wants with its money and wages.
Ringo writes:
There's nothing new under the sun. There were never any good old days.
It just seems that way for those of us born in the late fifties in the U.S. Its hard for me to accept the idea that God never promised me a bigger rose garden than anyone else.
The patriotism and freedom that the US has, coupled with the fact that we as a nation have at times been evil in order to secure, is a fact. Jar thinks that all of us are responsible. If so, we never really have been a Christian nation. We gave out of our abundance at times, yet never gave our second cloak away. If we are to be judged, I hope that the judge is merciful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 11-09-2010 8:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 11-09-2010 10:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 144 (590824)
11-09-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
11-09-2010 10:42 PM


Still looking for the alleged Golden Age.
I can't deny that this happened. Americans of that time (or this time) may argue that the Indians resisted moving out of the way, and we had to look out for our own first. This behavior of humanity throughout the ages is not limited to America alone, though because we became an empire, we often were aggressive in order to do so.
The topic is that there was an alleged Golden Age based on the biblical principle "Love they neighbor as thy self" during the 1800s in the US.
Are you now claiming that the characteristic of a biblical principle driven Golden Age is "we had to look out for our own first"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 11-09-2010 10:42 PM Phat has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 125 of 144 (590831)
11-10-2010 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
11-09-2010 7:46 PM


Re: Jar ignores the answers to his questions
What people are doing at some other time is irrelevant to YOUR claim.
A response of this nature makes it clear you have no indication of being objective, actually responding to my argument or answering questions, all of which are a part of debate
Of course what the vast majority of the people are doing and how and with what they are conducting thier behavior, is the very issue and has everything to do with my claim
The bible was nearly the sole rule, people attended churches in droves, churches were everywhere and people practiced the tenets of Christianity in that time period, even if they did not get everything perfect.
unless you respond to arguments and questions, I cannot take you serious as an opponent in a debate
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 11-09-2010 7:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Larni, posted 11-10-2010 7:57 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 130 by jar, posted 11-10-2010 9:41 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 126 of 144 (590832)
11-10-2010 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Theodoric
11-09-2010 8:32 PM


Re: Jar ignores the answers to his questions
I'll bite and I will make it simple for you. Give me one piece of evidence. Show me evidence that the masses did what you assert.
You mean that the Bible was the source of nearly all thinking, that there were countless churches in every single town. That people worshiped on and every sunday
Id call that proof positive that that was a golden age for God and the scriptures
Would you deny that even today all of the above situations exist in the MAJORITY, even if people are not perfect and dont always get everything exacally right.
Only a person that is paying no attention at all, or has an agenda, like yourself, would deny that, even today, this is a God fearing Christian nation, where the Bible is revered as the Word of God. Id call that Golden, not perfection, but Golden
What exacally are you looking for in Golden, perfection?
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Theodoric, posted 11-09-2010 8:32 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by AdminPD, posted 11-10-2010 7:00 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 129 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2010 9:39 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 127 of 144 (590843)
11-10-2010 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Dawn Bertot
11-10-2010 2:26 AM


Aruge the Position
Dawn Bertot,
Rule #10: ... Argue the position, not the person. ...
Rule #4: Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you
AdminPD Purple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-10-2010 2:26 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 128 of 144 (590846)
11-10-2010 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Dawn Bertot
11-10-2010 2:15 AM


Missing the point
Hi Dawn.
I wonder if you are talking at cross purposes here.
It's my understanding that Buzz's point was that when people were all god fearing xians the country (I assume the US) was somehow better.
I could be wrong (and do forgive me if I am) but you seem to describing a golden age of worship, where church attendence was far higher than it is now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-10-2010 2:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2010 9:42 AM Larni has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 129 of 144 (590862)
11-10-2010 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Dawn Bertot
11-10-2010 2:26 AM


Assertions, assertions and more assertions
You mean that the Bible was the source of nearly all thinking, that there were countless churches in every single town. That people worshiped on and every sunday
Now you might want to try some evidence to back up this claim. Just because you believe this was true does not make it so. Can you provide any historical evidence to back up anything you claim?
Only a person that is paying no attention at all, or has an agenda, like yourself, would deny that, even today, this is a God fearing Christian nation, where the Bible is revered as the Word of God. Id call that Golden, not perfection, but Golden
Gee you might make me cry. Why didn't you just claim now was the golden age if this is what you feel? You might want to read some studies on church attendance if you want to go with that line of argument.
What exacally are you looking for in Golden, perfection?
Maybe you can read the OP and the comment from Buz I took exception to, but that is only an idea.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-10-2010 2:26 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 144 (590864)
11-10-2010 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Dawn Bertot
11-10-2010 2:15 AM


Re: Jar ignores the answers to his questions
Dawn Bertot writes:
jar writes:
What people are doing at some other time is irrelevant to YOUR claim.
A response of this nature makes it clear you have no indication of being objective, actually responding to my argument or answering questions, all of which are a part of debate
Of course what the vast majority of the people are doing and how and with what they are conducting thier behavior, is the very issue and has everything to do with my claim
The bible was nearly the sole rule, people attended churches in droves, churches were everywhere and people practiced the tenets of Christianity in that time period, even if they did not get everything perfect.
unless you respond to arguments and questions, I cannot take you serious as an opponent in a debate
Dawn Bertot
Let me try to remind you of what is being discussed.
quote:
What people are doing at some other time is irrelevant to YOUR claim.
Just in case you missed it, here it is again.
quote:
Dawn Bertot writes:
jar writes:
Are you saying that "Love your neighbor as yourself" is the biblical principle and that the 1800s, 1940s and 1950s are the period when that principle was held up as a rule of moral principles by the vast majority of Americans?
Yeeeees. Could you demonstrate why this was not a golden age of the Bible when the majority of the people held it to the highest standard and used it as the sole guide in morals
Dawn Bertot
Well we can look and see if the people of the United States did actually use the principle "Love your neighbor as yourself" as their sole guide in morals.
The 1800 would be the period when the US, after signing a Treaty with the Kingdom of Hawaii invaded it and over threw the monarch. It would be the period of the Spanish American War when we invaded and took Puerto Rico. It would be when the US invaded Mexico and forced them to accept a treaty that gave the US what is now Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, California, Utah and parts of Colorado. It would be the period of the Indian Wars where the US not only took land from the Native Americans by force but also desecrated their Holy Places (which we continue to do today) but also outlawed and suppressed their religions and cultural practices.
Do those sound like the acts of a people driven by the biblical principle "Love thy neighbor as thy self?"
Remember "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." ?

The claim made by you (and I asked several times just to make sure we were addressing the same issue and you confirmed that it was the issue) was that the 1800s in the Us were a Golden Age of Christianity driven by the biblical principle "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and that they used that as the sole guide in morals.
I replied by pointing to the actual evidence that is available.
You then asked about other times, for example when the US invaded Grenada. Sorry Charlie, but that was not during the 1800s which is the period in question in your claim.
You then tried making assertions for which there was no evidence and then claims that have nothing to do with your claim.
Frankly, I really don't much care whether you take me seriously or not, the arguments I make will stand or fall based on the content, not the source.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-10-2010 2:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by NoNukes, posted 11-15-2010 11:42 AM jar has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 131 of 144 (590865)
11-10-2010 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Larni
11-10-2010 7:57 AM


Re: Missing the point
I could be wrong (and do forgive me if I am) but you seem to describing a golden age of worship, where church attendence was far higher than it is now.
DB seems to be incapable of providing evidence for even that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Larni, posted 11-10-2010 7:57 AM Larni has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 132 of 144 (591386)
11-13-2010 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Buzsaw
11-09-2010 8:47 PM


Re: Alleged Golden Age Glitch Inadequate
Dr. Adequate, you're adequacy level of debate is waning here in this message, decrying the escape of the oppressed people from Europe and GB, risking life and posessions for freedom in the Americas.
Here's the deal. If you're serious, to be fair to whom you consider the oppressed, you need to find yourself an oppressed descendent of one of the tribes cited and hand over all you have to their nation; your land, because you think it belongs to them and your stuff for repatriation. You're being hypocritical claiming deed to land which IYO does not belong to you.
This has nothing to do with what I wrote.
I simply pointed out that as a matter of historical fact the US did "grab nations and add them to our empire".
I did not say nor imply that it would now be a good idea to give it all back, say sorry, and go back to Europe; nor that it was, in the final analysis, a bad thing; I just said that it happened. Which is a fact.
---
In the same way, if someone points out that slavery existed, do you start yelling at them that if that's what they think they should give everything they have to a black person, and that they're hypocritical if they don't?
It's merely a factual proposition about events in the past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2010 8:47 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 133 of 144 (591434)
11-13-2010 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Buzsaw
11-09-2010 8:22 PM


Re: Decline Of The Golden Age
The problem with the Civil Rights movement was it went to far towards the decline of freedom. Rights of employers and landlords were taken, employer requirements for minorities, women's rights, children rights and animal rights gay rights etc. All of these so called rights for designated classes infringed on the rights of others and increased government and bureacracy. School districts were required to buy buses for integration of students. Those are just to mention a few.
And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
And the multitude said, this is Political Correctness gone mad.
And behold, it increaseth bureaucracy.
For this giveth special rights to the Grecians, who are thereby made equal to the Hebrews, which maketh their rights more special than the rights of the Hebrews, inasmuch as they are exactly the same.
For lo, they are become a Designated Class.
And the multitude denounced the apostles for liberals. And there was great lamentation in the land.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2010 8:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 134 of 144 (591454)
11-14-2010 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Buzsaw
11-09-2010 8:22 PM


Re: Decline Of The Golden Age
The problem with the Civil Rights movement was it went to far towards the decline of freedom. Rights of employers and landlords were taken, employer requirements for minorities, women's rights, children rights and animal rights gay rights etc. All of these so called rights for designated classes infringed on the rights of others and increased government and bureacracy. School districts were required to buy buses for integration of students. Those are just to mention a few.
Um sorry to disapoint you but those are not rights, rights are things that cannot be taken away, if you think your rights cannot be taken away ask the Japanese Americans that lived during WW2 and they will tell you all about these rights.
All of the above are not rights they are privilages .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 11-09-2010 8:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 144 (591654)
11-15-2010 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by jar
11-10-2010 9:41 AM


1800's Golden Age
jar writes:
The claim made by you (and I asked several times just to make sure we were addressing the same issue and you confirmed that it was the issue) was that the 1800s in the Us were a Golden Age of Christianity driven by the biblical principle "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and that they used that as the sole guide in morals.
I think your definition of neighbor is 'unBiblically' broad. Were the Native American's really the neighbors of the Anglo-Saxons simply because they lived next door? Were the Canaanites the neighbors of the Hebrews?
When the proto-Americans left Europe to escape religious persecution that was practically a replay of Exodus. What could be more Biblical than going all Manifest Destiny and stuff on the descendants of Cain or Ham?
No, manifest destiny was not very enlightened or Christ-like. But it was Biblical. Or at least it was until some progressives decided that equal rights applied to non-neighbors. Stinkin' Whigs in American clothing.
Edited by NoNukes, : Fix a stupid your/you're error

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 11-10-2010 9:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Species8472, posted 11-15-2010 11:47 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 137 by jar, posted 11-15-2010 12:30 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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