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Author Topic:   Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?
jar
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 211 of 214 (599272)
01-06-2011 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by rueh
01-06-2011 7:34 AM


Re: a designer vs the tinkerer
rueh writes:
jar writes:
jar (note all lower case) talked about a designer, not a mechanic or maintenance worker. We are not discussing the janitor.
Well in that case it is rueh (note the u before the e). I don't believe I have mentioned any janitors or workers of any type. I have however mentioned that the type of designer you choose to propose influences how much their identity could matter. Wouldn't a supernatural designer be just another type of designer? Which type of designer did you have in mind? Are you wanting to discuss a designer that has no impact on everyday life and whose finding would not conflict with any science so far? Or do you think that current theories proport a designer and whose finding would be in line with current theories?
You mentioned something that intervenes after the design. Design is a pretty specific task and is NOT maintenance. And yes, a supernatural designer would still be a designer.
rueh writes:
jar writes:
And you so far have not shown why even the expanded janitor designer matters in relation to the job of being a designer.
That's not true. I have given several examples how the type of designer can influence how much importance people would place on its identity. Just because you don't want to acknowledge them doesn't mean I haven't shown anything.
The question is whether or not the designer even matters. Granted, people may well place importance on the designer, people buy Gucci handbags and Bill Blass suits even though it is almost certain that neither individual designed the item.
Even if you show other functions, for example that there is a particular judge or law giver or maintainer, how are any of those related to that individual being a designer?
If you want to redefine the term Designer to also mean maintenance worker and judge and law giver, then we are no longer talking about the classic definitions of a designer.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by rueh, posted 01-06-2011 7:34 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by rueh, posted 01-06-2011 11:57 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 668 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 212 of 214 (599279)
01-06-2011 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by rueh
01-06-2011 7:34 AM


Re: a designer vs the tinkerer
rueh writes:
I have given several examples how the type of designer can influence how much importance people would place on its identity.
You've given examples of how some entities might have importance. The janitor matters because you might need him to change a lightbulb. The building owner matters because he could evict you. I don't think you've shown how the architect matters.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by rueh, posted 01-06-2011 7:34 AM rueh has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3969 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 213 of 214 (599281)
01-06-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by rueh
01-06-2011 7:50 AM


Re: Hysterical footnotes
rueh writes:
Well with that I agree. In reality there is no designer that has been identified and no scientific theory makes note of a need for a designer. However if one was ever found to be true. You can bet your ass you would have a million people proclaiming why their choosen identity of the designer matters and others don't.
People choosing the identity of the designer and then claiming it matters is what already happens.
The question asked by jar was to address this obsession with who the designer was (directed to IDists because of their focus on having a designer).
rueh writes:
Real world examples? No, not off hand. However for this thought experiment. I believe that the identity of the designer plays the most important role in both religious and philosophical aspects.
If a being designed all life and then died, people would carry on regardless.
"But who designed the designer?" they would ask.
"You cannot disprove my god!" they would cry.
Very little would change.
People are interested in their god because of the other things that their deity offers (e.g. eternal life).
No-one would worship a 'god' of design only.
And people happily worship gods that didn't design.
rueh writes:
ID is just one type of field where a designer is required and I didn't think that we were talking about ID designers specifically.
Well, the OP is based on the question "Even if ID was true, is there any value to the concept of a Designer beyond a historical footnote or in the case of Product Liability suits?" and this thread is in the 'Intelligent Design' forum.
rueh writes:
I just wanted to play devil’s advocate because I felt that jar was wrong on this point of identity not mattering for the designer.
Devil's advocaat?! Again you mention religion!
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by rueh, posted 01-06-2011 7:50 AM rueh has not replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3917 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 214 of 214 (599291)
01-06-2011 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
01-06-2011 9:04 AM


Re: a designer vs the tinkerer
jar writes:
Even if you show other functions, for example that there is a particular judge or law giver or maintainer, how are any of those related to that individual being a designer?
Ok, I see the point you are making and where our disagreement and my confusion lies. I am confusing other roles that the designer could play as opposed to his original work of design.
In that case knowing the identity of the designer may only be important (other than historical footnotes or liability) if we wanted to commune with them. Whether or not this would be possible is beyond me. However I know some people would want to find answers for their questions regarding our universe and lives, straight from the horse's mouth. As opposed to the scientific investigation that we now use.
ABE: On second thought, if a method was devised to commune with the designer that would be fullfilling a seperate role from designer to facilitator. So it has nothing to do with their original designing processes.
Edited by rueh, : No reason given.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jar, posted 01-06-2011 9:04 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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