Even if there was a Designer, does it matter?

Permit me to reitterate what you said above.If you punch me in the face it, "matters" because it hurts and will cause me damage. If Zeus does not exist, then the universe will be unable to keep itself together, therefore it "matters".Or how about...If you punch me in the face it, "matters" because it hurts and will cause me damage. If the Devas do not exist, then the universe will be unable to keep itself together, therefore it "matters".Or, how about...If you punch me in the face it, "matters" because it hurts and will cause me damage. If the immaterial pink unicorn does not exist, then the universe will be unable to keep itself together, therefore it "matters".Please tell me you understand my intention.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

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c('')('')

I guess that I don't see these questions as historical footnotes because they have modern day applications. Knowing who the designer is leads to questioning why the designer did what they did and that can give us an idea of what we are expected to do in our everyday life. It may not change everyone’s perspective, as in your using a radio for a doorstop (personally I believe everything can be used as a hammer) example but it would certainly affect some. That certainly is of more importance than an interesting footnote of what Mr. Ford did. I guess that knowing the exact identity of the designer would be important if we want to eliminate supernatural causes for existence. For instance if we determine that life has been designed but it was not through naturalistic causes, than we can turn our attention to being able to investigate the supernatural. Just how exactly we do that is beyond me or the scope of the OP but it would provide us direction for investigation. Conversely if we find that life was designed and it was through naturalistic methods than we can further eliminate the possibility provided by some of supernatural forces in life’s formation.

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'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

Hello Panda,
Yeah I kind of realize that my analogy was not much better. However I was trying to think of an example of something where no known inventor could be proposed. Where the identity could have ramifications that are beyond historical footnotes. I agree that we have experience with life; however I thought that for this debate we were assuming that the designer in some form or fashion does indeed exist and is responsible for life as we know it. In which case being able to investigate the "how" of the designer creating life is just as much tied into the "who" or "why". I just don't see how you could separate them if for this hypothetical example the designer did truly exist. If I am beyond the limits of this hypothetical example than I guess Jar can let us know.

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'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

Hello ringo, I agree, however knowing the identity doesn't necessarily preclude any assets. As I mentioned earlier we may be able to further expand our investigative techniques to include the supernatural. If by knowing the designers identity we discover that there are certain aspects of life that are beyond naturalistic explanation. Or we can begin to search where the designers of life originated to begin with. If we determine that life was created naturally by aliens, for example.

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'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

I still don't see it for several reasons. How does knowing who the designer is or why something was done the way it was done tell us anything about what we are expected to do in our everyday lives?In addition, why is the "intent" of a designer even relevant?See Message 147 for a discussion of intent.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Hello jar, Well if we knew that it was Brahma that created life it may lead people towards Buddhism. That is one aspect of knowing the identity that can have real world aspects that effect how people would behave in their everyday life. True we can live our lives with whatever intent we deem appropriate, however if we knew that the designer was in fact the Judaic god, than his intent could have ramifications if we live life opposite of his intentions. This could shape the way that people live their everyday lives. We may be able to live life with intent that it was never ment for. Just as we can use silly putty for applications that it was not designed for. That does not mean that some people wouldn't want to know what the original intentions for life are/were. Or if we discover that it was aliens that created life. Wouldn't we want to know why they are seeding the universe with life? I imagine that we would also want to be able to commune with the aliens and knowing their identity could point us in which direction we would need to travel in order to do so.In a purely hypothetical situation such as this discussion, nothing is off limits. So I just don't see how you believe that the ramifications of such a discovery can all be summed up by liability or historical footnotes?Edited by rueh, : expanding my point.

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'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

Why? The fact that Henry Ford designed the Model T tells me nothing about how I should live my life. Again why? Even if the Judaic God were the designer what would his intent have to do with anything?If aliens created life we might want to know why, but again, only as an historical footnote.If we found out there were aliens, whether or not they created us, we would still need to decide whether or not it was in our interest to communicate with them.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

"Investigating the supernatural" seems like an oxymoron to me. Anything we can investigate must be natural and it makes no difference whether the originator of it was natural or supernatural. And anything we can not investigate is automatically irrelevant (from a real-world point of view).

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"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

But the design or maker of a model t has no bearing on your life. The designer of all life does have direct bearing on your life because depending on who the designer is, it may come with ramifications. I don't see how you can conflate the two models. One is a car the other is all life as we know it, two very different things. It has relevance because by knowing the identity, we can hope to garner their intentions. In the case of the Judaic god going against his intentions seems to come with many negative aspects. Or conversely by knowing who it is not we could eliminate superfluous aspects of life brought on by dogma. Awww so that is something that matters beyond liability or historical footnote. Deciding whether or not we wish to further our investigations. I think you just answered your OP. There are other issues that arise and that matter from knowing the identity of the designer.

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'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

How are they different? Again, you are conflating to issues, the identity of some designer and some possible judge. The two are unrelated. But it is unrelated to whether or not they were the designer.Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Correction: the designer in some form or fashion [did] indeed exist and [was] responsible for life as we know it.Else your logic would be:
Was there a designer of the radio? Yes.
Who was the designer? Guglielmo Marconi*.
Therefore Guglielmo Marconi exists.
Which is obviously false.You cannot argue from "There was a designer." to "A designer still exists.".
The fact that Guglielmo Marconi once existed is just an interesting footnote. Have you tried answering those questions in relation to (e.g.) radio?
Who designed the radio? Guglielmo Marconi - historical footnote.
Why did he design the radio? No-one really knows or cares. He probably needed a radio.
How did he design the radio? The actual process that happened in his head? No-one really knows or cares.The actual physical design is all anyone cares about and that is there before our eyes.
Knowing who the designer was (or why he did it) does not help us understand radios. *I realise that Guglielmo Marconi didn't "design the radio" but for clarity it will do as an example.

Hello Panda, Well Jar in the OP never specified exactly which designer we are talking about. It could have been a designer that accomplished their work and have then been absent in their creation. Or it could be a designer that does have active control over their creation. Since it's not specified any options proposed for the designer bear just as much weight as every other option. If the designer created the universe and then had no further input since its inception than yes they may well be regulated to footnote status. However that is another area of investigation that would need to be studied if we ever found that life was truly designed.
The elephant in the room that everyone has been ignoring is the fact that what we think we know about the processes of life could be completely wrong if life is ever discovered to have been designed. We would need to revamp how we investigate life and knowing who the designer is and the how and why of their designing could certainly have a role to play with further investigation.Edited by rueh, : spelling

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'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

Hello Jar, Really Jar? You need me to spell out how the creator of a car has less significance than the designer of possibly every atom in the universe? It's not obvious to you how one could have more future ramifications than the other? Maybe but you do not specify which type of designer we are talking about. If it were aliens for example we may not need to worry about what occurs to us or even the possibility of an afterlife. However it certainly would shake the foundations of some people’s religious views, just as the evolutionary explanations currently proposed do. However if an omnipotent and active designer such as the Judaic god were to be discovered than the future ramifications that could be present simply by living your life would have a huge impact on many folks lives.I'll try to expand my points later. I have to get to work now. Thanks for the interesting conversation so far.

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'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

Yes, it is not obvious to you how one could have more future ramifications than the other.Remember, I am a Christian. I happen to believe that GOD is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen. However I also understand that is totally irrelevant. LOL, HUH!!!!???What kind of a designer?I'm sorry but do you mean like an inept designer, incompetent designer?

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Well it may be totally irrelevant since we are unable to measure any effects that god has on his creation. However in your scenario you propose that design and a designer have been found. So if it were found not to be the god you believe in. That would have no relevancy on your life? That wouldn't cause you to reflect on your current belief system? No I meant more of active versus inactive designer. An inactive designer probably would have no importance other than a footnote. Unless the designer proposed had set rules for humanities behavior that are enforceable upon death. Versus an active designer, in which case we would need to reexamine everything we currently understand about the development of life. Since an active designer would have constant input. What we see as current driving forces of evolution would need to be explained through how the designer manipulates these forces.

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'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX