|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Can You define God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: I agree that many people believe many things are supernatural, but I also see no way while I am simply a human living in this natural world to actually determine if something really is supernatural. A GOD, if a GOD exists, would really be supernatural. Are you stating this as a fact or a belief?
jar writes: Other things might also really be supernatural. I believe that demons, if demons as popularly conceived exist, would be supernatural. Am I wrong?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I will try yet again.
Since I know of no way to test, describe, verify that something really is supernatural, I cannot state for a fact that anything is supernatural. Demons, if demons existed, would be supernatural.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I also believe that Thor, if Thor as popularly conceived existed, would be supernatural.
Am I wrong?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You are probably wrong.
That is based on looking at the attributes, descriptions and characteristics asserted for Thor.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So what is it that makes demons supernatural but Thor not?
What attributes does one possess that the other doesn't such that one qualifies as supernatural (if it exists) but the other doesn't (if it exists)?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, demons is a super vague term and so we really don't have a clue what it might be.
Thor though is pretty specific and we can look at those attributes and determine that they either are not supernatural or do not exist. Asgard and Midgard do not exist, thunder and lightning have real natural causes, the three worlds and nine nations of Norse mythology do not exist but can be seen to be related to actual areas of the world of the period when the mythos was developing. We can also see the evolution of Norse mythology as Christianity was introduced into the folk lore and population.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: True, since by definition, supernatural is "of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe". there is no way we can ever determine these types of things. Does that make the very word theoretical?
I agree that many people believe many things are supernatural, but I also see no way while I am simply a human living in this natural world to actually determine if something really is supernatural. A GOD, if a GOD exists, would really be supernatural. While I agree with this statement, perhaps some people imagine their God to be quite natural, similar to Barbara Eden on I dream of Jeannie
Straggler writes: Do you mean you, jar? Or you, Phat? Or perhaps you think that "you" is inclusive.
Are you stating this as a fact or a belief? jar writes: Can we list anything now known as a tangible fact that is by definition supernatural?
Other things might also really be supernatural. Straggler writes: No. You are entitled to exclusive beliefs. Beliefs by definition cannot be inclusive. I believe that demons, if demons as popularly conceived exist, would be supernatural. Am I wrong? hmmmm. this is getting funny!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: Well, demons is a super vague term and so we really don't have a clue what it might be. So now the criteria you are applying to judge if something is supernatural or not is ambiguity? I also believe that Allah, if Allah exists, would be supernatural. Am I wrong? I also believe that Voldermort, if Voldermort as described by JK. Rowling actually existed (I'll grant you this isn't likely - but IF), would be supernatural. Am I wrong?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler writes: I believe that demons, if demons as popularly conceived exist, would be supernatural. Am I wrong? Phat writes: No. You are entitled to exclusive beliefs. Beliefs by definition cannot be inclusive. If I were to believe that you are supernatural Phat - Would I be wrong? Beliefs are not the be-all-and-end-all of reality. In fact they have very little effect at all....
Phat writes: hmmmm. this is getting funny! Dude it's hilarious!!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No, that is not the criteria I am applying.
Given additional details we can test something to determine that it is not supernatural. When you mention Voldemort we do have additional details; for example we know Voldemort is just a fictional character and so is most definitely not supernatural. Allah is far more ambiguous and so we have less details and can say almost nothing about Allah. There is the belief that Allah was the Creator and that Allah is the Yahweh character from the Hebrew Books and the final judge of all people. That's about it though. I would place Allah as well as the various iterations of the Hebrew Yahweh as Gods, something almost certain not to exist. Again, we know the source for these characters and can watch the evolution of the descriptions over time. But both Allah and Yahweh are useful creations, attempts to describe what really cannot be described. I have a very high degree of confidence that they are both simply human constructs just like the Christian God.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
As an atheist and non-supernaturalist it goes almost without saying that I think that Allah and Voldermort and demons and GOD are all most likely human constructs rather than real beings.
But that is completely beside the point because we have already qualified the question with "IF they exist". So I put it you again: I believe that Allah, if Allah exists, would be supernatural. Am I wrong? I believe that Voldermort, if Voldermort as described by JK. Rowling actually exists, would be supernatural. Am I wrong? I don't think either exist. But I am asking you IF they did exist would they be supernatural? Try not to conflate the question of existnce with the question of supernaturality.
jar writes: I have a very high degree of confidence that they are both simply human constructs just like the Christian God. And thus they are not supernatural in your eyes.
jar writes: Demons, if demons existed, would be supernatural. How confident are you about the existence of demons?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And I have answered.
We know Voldemort does not exist. If I encountered someone in real life that had the attributes of the character I would NOT say it was supernatural. I can't say anything about Allah since you provide no information about the entity you call Allah, and so can only repeat what I have said. We know the origin of the stories about Allah and so I can say with a very high degree of confidence that Allah is simply a human construct. And on Demons, as I have said, the term is so vague I can not have any real position. Because the term is so vague it has no real meaning. I have a very high confidence level though that demons do not exist. I cannot say that ANYTHING that I can describe, test, discuss in any detail, point to or experience is really supernatural.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: If so, could our argument be GOD, if GOD exists versus GODS if GODS exist?
I would place Allah as well as the various iterations of the Hebrew Yahweh as Gods, something almost certain not to exist. Again, we know the source for these characters and can watch the evolution of the descriptions over time. But both Allah and Yahweh are useful creations, attempts to describe what really cannot be described.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And on Demons, as I have said, the term is so vague I can not have any real position. Because the term is so vague it has no real meaning. I have a very high confidence level though that demons do not exist.
Revelation 1:8 writes: I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 17:8 writes: "The Beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the Bottomless Pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the Earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the Beast that was, and is not, and yet is"
Thus, it is conceivable that GOD (If GOD exists) IS, whereas the Beast(demons?) Is Not.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Not really. We have absolutely no way that I can see to know about anything that is supernatural and no reason to expect that anything that really is supernatural would correspond to anything natural or that we can imagine.
If we try to assign gender or entity or plural or abilities or shape or name or any other characteristic I can think of all we are doing is creating a caricature and anthropomorphism. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024