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Author Topic:   Are Point Mutations problematic for ToE?
seanfhear
Junior Member (Idle past 4613 days)
Posts: 23
From: California
Joined: 09-28-2010


Message 31 of 36 (584109)
09-30-2010 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Blue Jay
09-30-2010 10:26 AM


Re: Population or Individual?
Could it be that Dr. Purdom limits her research to avoid a conflict with her religious belief? She seems to want to stop at a point where an untrained audience might get the impression that point mutations stall at the micro-evolutionary stage. She would thus, knowingly or not, be building a platform to refute macro-evolution that would appeal to the untrained audience. I am speaking from the position of a non-professional listener.
It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive. C. W. Leadbeater
Thanks, Percy, for the Vitamin C example. That seems simple and reasonable to me.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."
Voltaire

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Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 32 of 36 (584124)
09-30-2010 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Blue Jay
09-30-2010 10:26 AM


Re: Population or Individual?
The only way to defeat their argument is to imply some sort of mechanism that assesses whether a "proposed" mutation will add or subtract information, and forbids those that will add, but this idea seems stupid.
I don't think this is quite the case. The attitude that seems to come up time and again is a belief that there are specific original 'created' sequences which represent the maximal informational content regardless of functionality or any other concern.
Any deviation from these sequences must be a reduction in information, it is possible that a reversion would add back the lost information but you can never have any new information according to this view because no change, even one creating a new specific function, is producing novel information because information is only being measured in how closely a sequence adheres to a created ideal.
I came up against this arguing about antibiotic resistance with Smooth Operator, he claimed that even if a mutation had no phenotypic effect other than conferring resistance it still constituted a loss of genetic infromation because the protein conformation had changed.
Just for my 0.02 on the OP, as has been pointed out, there is no rational informational metric by which Georgia Purdom's claim could even remotely be considered true.
TTFN,
WK

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jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 36 (584125)
09-30-2010 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by seanfhear
09-30-2010 11:41 AM


Re: Population or Individual?
Could it be that Dr. Purdom limits her research to avoid a conflict with her religious belief? She seems to want to stop at a point where an untrained audience might get the impression that point mutations stall at the micro-evolutionary stage. She would thus, knowingly or not, be building a platform to refute macro-evolution that would appeal to the untrained audience.
Speaking as a Christian, I fear that the issue is willful ignorance at best, but more likely just plain money. There is a gold mine out there speaking to and writing books for the Christian Cult of Ignorance groups.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 31 by seanfhear, posted 09-30-2010 11:41 AM seanfhear has not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4909 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 34 of 36 (584206)
09-30-2010 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by seanfhear
09-30-2010 11:41 AM


Re: Population or Individual?
Ignore me, I'm an idjit.
Edited by Nij, : No reason given.

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1275 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 35 of 36 (584224)
09-30-2010 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Blue Jay
09-30-2010 10:26 AM


Re: Population or Individual?
I agree with you on this perspective, and I've used this argument before too. But, thinking about it now, I don't know this is really a useful argument, since, on the population scale, a mutation is essentially defined as an increase in information. Obviously, this isn't what creationists object to at all.
I think it's vital that we emphasize that what creationists object to is based entirely on a strawman version of evolution. In this line of argument, they are ignoring how evolution actually works. As I said at the outset, I agree with what others have said. But at bottom, it's irrelevant whether a particular mutation increases or decreases "information" because it's indisputable that mutations do increase "information" in the population overall.
By all means, show that the creationist claim that mutations decrease "information" is bollocks. But that demonstration is rather technical, and includes difficult discussions about what "information" means and how to measure it. For the uneducated, it's all a lot of muddy water. By contrast, the demonstration that every mutation increases "information," no matter how it's defined, is clear to even those who know absolutely nothing about genetics. A mutation creates a new genetic sequence that wasn't present in the population before the mutation occurred, but doesn't eliminate the sequence that existed before the mutation from the population. Ergo, more "information."

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 36 of 36 (584290)
10-01-2010 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by subbie
09-30-2010 10:32 PM


Re: Population or Individual?
Other creationist beliefs that get in the way of their understanding:
  • Anything random can only be bad.
  • Anything bad must decrease information.
  • Anything good must increase information.
All three are so obviously false, falsifying counterexamples so easy to come by, that I'll stop here.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

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