Is an Intelligent Designer Necessary?

Mike Doran responds to me:

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BTW, I talked about my forecast at TWC and started quite a firestorm there when it came true. It created so much controversy they booted me.

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Why don't I believe that? Why do I think that whether or not you got booted from The Weather Channel, it had absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy of your prediction?

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Questions?

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Yes. Just how much grasping at straws are you going to do?You are, indeed, correct that there are electrical differences between the atmosphere and the surface. There's a reason that there are a hundred strokes of lightning every second.But you are taking every tiny thing that could even remotely be described as electrical and attempting to claim it has cosmic significance.Have you considered the possibility that your limited exposure to the fields of meteorology, physics, and fluid dynamics might be affecting your ability to synthesize your claim? Is there no college or university nearby that you can attend to gain more experience?It's hard to know where to begin with your claim precisely because you are bouncing from one concept to the next, not sticking around long enough to develop the significance of any. It is not enough to merely recognize that the ocean, being saltwater, has ions in it. You have to explain how your process happens. Why does the ocean become negative? Why the ionosphere positive? Lightning strikes go both ways, after all.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I guess I will try again. What is the nucleotide content necessary in a particle of ice to allow sorting due to differences in electrical potential? Is the nucleotide content in ice crystals high enough for sorting to occur?Two simple questions that need to be answered before your hypothesis can become theory. Talking about hurricanes does nothing to indicate nucleotide content in clouds. So, for the first question I need a range of numbers and for the second question I need an yes/no. That simple.

"What is the nucleotide content necessary in a particle of ice to allow sorting due to differences in electrical potential? Is the nucleotide content in ice crystals high enough for sorting to occur?"Here is how we figure out what someone's DNA is (RNA sequencing is similar). My brother actually did it -- studying heart tissue genome from rats.You take a sample. You amplify it. Then you put it in a gel that is electrically nuetral, largely resistive. Then you apply a direct electrical potential to the strip of gel. The nucleotides will move in the opposing field, anode and cathode, and sort by shape, size, mass and charge. In BANDS. Bands of tiny cirrus are exactly what the Harris et al paper in Nature talks about in terms of significant capture of infra red heat.The question you ask is for specifics. However, what I am explaining to you is that the voltages between ionosphere and ocean, cloud top, vary chaotically, such that whatever that specific is--it will be reached at some point such that the banding character matters. The proof is in the pudding. IOWs, the evidence is in the nucleotides that survive themselves. You have so called junk DNA which has no function--but yet would be meaningful in terms of the criteria of shape, size, wieght and charge of a parasol."Two simple questions that need to be answered before your hypothesis can become theory. Talking about hurricanes does nothing to indicate nucleotide content in clouds."This false, because tropical storms and particle based cloud nucleation have been correlated. I could go on and on, but it is difficult to put what I know in conversation--to teach you what you already know. Modernly, the evidence of what was is in design of what is--it is unlikely that there are free nucleotides in cirrus. There are, however, been algae found in clouds. And there are no two celled three celled, four celled creatures. Why?" So, for the first question I need a range of numbers and for the second question I need an yes/no. That simple."Electropheresis goes about as close to imitating the conditions as you are going to get, and the range of answers cannot be descrete because we don't know the exact electrical patterns 3-4 billion years ago on earth. But we do know that there is a range of values.The ionosphere huge voltages above tropical storms have been directly observed. The capactive coupling is already peer reviewed science. Cirrus contain microbial life now. This is anything but simple.

They form bands because there is nothing other than the elctrical forces and mass of the DNA to form these bands (DNA does not sort by charge, charge is constant but mass is variable). What I am trying to say is this, if a rock was comprised of 30% adenosine lets say, and you applied a current from the left of the rock to the right of the rock, would the rock move? No, because it has to overcome other forces that are stronger than the electrical charge. So, what does the nucleotide concentration of an ice particle have to be (mg nucleotide/mg total weight of the ice particle) in order for the ice crystals to sort in the presence of overriding mechanical convection currents?

"But you are taking every tiny thing that could even remotely be described as electrical and attempting to claim it has cosmic significance."Initially, nucleotide parasols probably had no influence on cloud formations below them. Nucleotides carry a negative ion value. That means, at a minimum, by shape, weight, size and CHARGE, cirrus clouds would BAND and tend to be SORTED. This then resulted in complexity by sorting, which would tend to band the cirrus such that it would fall back toward earth together. My view is eventually this evolved to modulate the chemistry AND temperatures, globally, that would favor the reformations of these nucleotides that did feedback local climate conditions that favored convection where chemistry and temperatures existed that was to their liking."Have you considered the possibility that your limited exposure to the fields of meteorology, physics, and fluid dynamics might be affecting your ability to synthesize your claim?"Don't be skeptical of me. Ignore me. I am simply trying to teach you an idea, which you can accept or reject. Therefore, spend your energy on what I am teaching you, not what or who I am. I have more than enough background to know material."It's hard to know where to begin with your claim precisely because you are bouncing from one concept to the next, not sticking around long enough to develop the significance of any. It is not enough to merely recognize that the ocean, being saltwater, has ions in it. You have to explain how your process happens. Why does the ocean become negative?"The ionosphere is negative, couples in a capacitive way through the eye to the ocean surface, which then attracts positive ions. Then, in the ocean around the eye, the ocean becomes relatively positive.Why the ionosphere positive? Lightning strikes go both ways, after all.There are no strikes in a tropical storm. I am explaining to you why.

Mike Doran responds to me:

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But you are taking every tiny thing that could even remotely be described as electrical and attempting to claim it has cosmic significance.

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Initially, nucleotide parasols probably had no influence on cloud formations below them. Nucleotides carry a negative ion value. That means, at a minimum, by shape, weight, size and CHARGE, cirrus clouds would BAND and tend to be SORTED.

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Define "sorted."And then you need to explain how the miniscule amount of charge on a nucleotide could have an effect upon some as large and amorphous as a cloud. You're simply throwing out terms and claiming that things happen with absolutely no explanation as to how.You need a specific mechanism.

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Have you considered the possibility that your limited exposure to the fields of meteorology, physics, and fluid dynamics might be affecting your ability to synthesize your claim?

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Don't be skeptical of me. Ignore me.

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Why? That isn't how science works. Science works not by ignoring data but by being skeptical of it. Anybody can say anything they want, but we need to examine their claims in detail before we can possibly come to understand what they are saying and agree that it is an accurate description of what is going on.Stop with the martyr complex.

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I am simply trying to teach you an idea

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No, you're not. You're trying to intimidate me into submission.

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I have more than enough background to know material.

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Then publish already! Stop wasting your time here and publish. Yeah, yeah...you're looking for a collaborator. What on earth do you need one for? Write to the journals, ask for their submission criteria, explain to them that you might need some assistance, and ask for their help. Surely there's an educational institution closer to you than the internet that would be able to assist you. Go to the library, read the journal articles that are connected to your field, and write to the authors with your ideas.

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The ionosphere is negative, couples in a capacitive way through the eye to the ocean surface, which then attracts positive ions. Then, in the ocean around the eye, the ocean becomes relatively positive.

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That doesn't answer the question. How does the ionosphere manage to affect the ocean from 75 km above? And why doesn't this happen constantly throughout the system?

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There are no strikes in a tropical storm.

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You're misunderstanding. I'm asking why the system only works in a single direction. Electricity goes both ways. Now, the ionosphere is generally filled with positive ions (the E-region is primarily O2+, the F-region is NO+ and O2+, and Topside you start seeing H+ and He+).So explain to me how something at the outer reaches of the atmosphere is coupled to the ocean.

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I am explaining to you why.

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No, you're just asserting. You need to explain the mechanism in detail.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Loudmouth Message 34 of 36 12-10-2003 07:39 PM wrote:"They form bands because there is nothing other than the elctrical forces and mass of the DNA to form these bands (DNA does not sort by charge, charge is constant but mass is variable)."Picture the nucleotide parasol falling or rising in ambiant winds between ionosphere and ocean. If the nucleotide is moving at a fast enough speed relative to the transient fields, the movement itself may have induction meaning. It's funny that you should mention exactly this because last night I was thinking about the handedness--a real problem w/ the Miller experiments. IOWs, w/ the Miller experiments, they came up, given initialing chemicals, w/ nucleotides which were evenly handed, but life's chemistry is handed. Since we are talking about a double helix, falling is going to have a spin, and hence an electrical polarity about that spin. If there is movement, the nucleotide will have a mass, shape, size and charge all its own relative to how it falls and rises between cloud and ionosphere. In short, charge matters dynamically because of the movements. Many have attempted to explain handedness by discussing a strong magnetic field, but none of them have attempted this explaination considering the rapid movement of nucleotide, and its rapid spin, and what that would mean to charges that would occur based on handedness."What I am trying to say is this, if a rock was comprised of 30% adenosine lets say, and you applied a current from the left of the rock to the right of the rock, would the rock move? No, because it has to overcome other forces that are stronger than the electrical charge. So, what does the nucleotide concentration of an ice particle have to be (mg nucleotide/mg total weight of the ice particle) in order for the ice crystals to sort in the presence of overriding mechanical convection currents?"The sorting doesn't have to occur with water. Once the particles are sorted, water forms on them, and at that point the sorting would probably be already complete. What the dust studies and tropical storms show, BTW, is that their formation is aided by the dust. What happens is when water forms on the dust, the phase change energy is given to the surrounding air, and the parasol hence rises, as it rises, this particle is frozen, and yet more phase change energy is given to the air, causing it to further rise above the cloud--that's when the infra red properties start to matter, in terms of trapping heat underneath them and cause further updrafts. The initial dynamic, however, is determined by the humidity and temperature of the air. IOWs, if the air is dry enough, a dust particle that has water might LOSE that water by evaporation, thereby COOLING the surrounding air with the phase change temperature. Hence, a particles ability to MOVE independant of the thermal characteristics of the air (move electrically) would lead to that particle becoming part of a rain producing dynamic as opposed to diffusing randomly away.

Rrhain wrote:Define "sorted."Really good question. In the above post, I described the "handedness" problem. What occurs in the ID debate is observations of existing sequences and comments by creationists of implausible complexity due to what is seen today. The example, from which there are many, is that there is handedness to the nucleotides when in fact the Miller experiments produced nucleotides without handedness. Therefore, in the process of going from a "dust" to a a band of cirrus, which then uniformly rain down on a given location, the dust which was right handed and the dust which was left handed, and mixed randomly together, gets sorted from the dust cloud to the pond where the dust is deposited. This dust then replicates whereas the dust without a banding effect will fall in a different location, perhap a location which does not favor its replication. Therefore, if you can show that handedness matters to a movement by size, shape, mass AND CHARGE (how it spins in DIRECTION relative to a transient field matters in its induced charge orientation, and, therefore, how it will "fly"), you have shown a mechanism by which a sorting could occur, and because you have emperical evidence that in fact sorting DID occur, in the handedness, you have a solid, scientific basis for making the assertion. Now, it it was just the handedness alone, you would have a weak theory -- but in fact there are a NUMBER of characterists that have been sorted that show this mechanism to be more than plausable but probable. In fact, in my mind, beyond a reasonable doubt. For instance, there is the field of biology a growing agreement that there are nucleotides that are "junk". There is quite a bit of discussion if these nucleotides have some function in terms of probabilities toward how those sequences that do have purposes will evolve, and therefore have a purpose, but, frankly, some creatures have lost these nucleotides, and my view is that with all the complexity that evolved before there were cells, there is no way that these sequences were without purpose. And that purposes was to, again, regulate the size, shape, mass and charge of particles in this Gaia modulation I am describing to you. Junk DNA, then, is a very misleading term, and I would rename them Gaia DNA, or if my ego would allow, Doran DNA!"And then you need to explain how the miniscule amount of charge on a nucleotide could have an effect upon some as large and amorphous as a cloud. You're simply throwing out terms and claiming that things happen with absolutely no explanation as to how."Early in precellular evolution that's all there would be as far as self replicating life, so there would be a lot of it, IMHO.Got to go to work. Later.

"How does the ionosphere manage to affect the ocean from 75 km above? And why doesn't this happen constantly throughout the system?"The coupling I discuss here is not directly pressures, not heat, not winds,not water/clouds content, but electrical--which then includes all these factors in storm behaviors.Allow me a very technical analogy.There is a device in electronics called a capacitor. Picture two 'T's
head up against each other, made of a condutive material connected by wires. Capacitors are used to pass alternating currents like the kind of electrical current in the plug that drives your computer.Capacitors are NOT designed to pass a direct current.One cool thing about EMFs, or electro magnetic fields, as opposed to a current in a wire, is that they pass in space. Particles, too,
move in space--kind of like electrons in a wire. BUT, electrical currents, direct ones, do not well pass in space. Confused? Did you know there is a difference between materials as
insulating to an ELECTRICAL CURRENT but not to a MAGENTIC FIELD?When a capacitor has an applied direct current of a positive voltage
to one end, this will cause the other end, the plate, to have the
opposite charge. That is because the flux lines created by the ions
on the plate, or the magnetic field of the electrical current, will
pass across the capicitor even though the current will not.This is really an important set of ideas, so please ask if you don't
know what I am talking about or even if you do have enough knowledge to know, to refresh your recollection because the discussion is quite involved.Okay. Now, when it comes to an alternating current (think sine wave)
in a perfect capacitor the signal will pass as the electrons on
either end of the plates will always go the other way, so you get an
output signal that they say is 180 degrees out of phase of the input
signal.Now, capacitors in reality are far from perfect, and the behavior I
am about to discuss is not perfect either. How good a capacitor
works, or the "capacitance", is function of such things as the
distance between the plates and the size of the plates and a variable
called the "dielectric" constant. That value depends on what material
is inbetween the plates. This gets to the idea that a material can be
electrically insulating to a current but may let a magnetic field
pass. And, BTW, this idea was hard even on Maxwell--such that only
his vector math survived. That said, part of the objection of the coupling discussed, that the ionosphere is a long distance way, is in part resolved by the fact that the forcing described is very large scale. IOWs, the eye of tropical storm can be 25 miles across!Okay. Turns out that the dielectric of water is about 80 times that
of a vacuum, and air is just slightly over a vacuum. Now picture ions
in space held by the earth's EMF. The so called van Allen belts.
Electrons in band, protons, then the upper ionosphere, which is
relatively negative in ion cummulation, then the lower ionosphere,
which tends to positive--made that way by the charge separations of
convection. This is very much like a physical "plate", if you will,
of electrons that move in a "current" through space, held by the
earth EMF, much like a wire and metal plate would hold electrons for
a capacitor. So even though the upper atmosphere isn't a metal plate,
it behaves like it in most ways. Likewise, clouds can be a little
conductive and move particles of cirrus and water in a plate like
manner, and finally the ocean surface, the ground, can act that way.The global electrical circuit is made of the fair weather positive voltages to ground of between 100 and 250 volts per meter positive. Over convective regions where charge seperations occur, HUGE negative voltages run to ground.So the only question as to how currents "pass", either alternating or
direct, begins to depend on the dielectric values of the air between
upper atmosphere and cloud and, say, ocean. That is why tropical
storms die over land--the capactive behaviors can no longer support
and organize cloud behaviors because the storm loses the circuitry--an open is created below with the loss of the conductive oceans.Alright. Now to the point of all of this. I have been saying that a
tropical storm is a point negative ion event over its center. There
is emperical proof of that:Page Not Found | Science Mission Directorate"Rarely seen lightning fields and purple sprites were detected in the
eye of the hurricane by the ER-2 pilot as he flew more than 19.8 km (65,000 ft) above the Atlantic.""That would be the capactive state. The direct currents, or the
strikes, are rare:"Surprisingly, not much lightning occurs in the inner core within
about 100 km or 60 mi of the tropical cyclone center. Only around a
dozen or less cloud-to-ground strikes per hour occur around the
eyewall of the storm...."Coral 404 – NOAA's Atlantic Oceanographic and Meteorological LaboratoryConsistent with this, Burke et al. [1992] has reported the detection
of keV electrons and large electric field transients above a
hurricane. These various observations all suggest that what is
occurring at great depths in the ocean may couple to the ionosphere.
The coupling mechanisms was said by them not to be well understood,
but it seems probable that "capacitive coupling" through the
displacement current my drive conduction currents within the
ionosphere [Hale and Baginski, 1987].Now, while NASA was looking at the ion charge over the eye, Bates et
al in Nature published a paper about the partial pressures of CO2
under Felix. As the storm passed through, that paper IMHO shows that
the CO2 then is part of discharge much like the chemistry of a
battery changes as it passes currents.So the point is, with the idea that dielectrics vary with water --
what is it about an eye? That's right--it has no cloud cover.
Therefore, it is going to have a better dielectric than the cloud
covered areas. Hence, concentrations of ions over the eye will be
able to pass alternating currents with incredible power and ease. But not direct currents or strikes. OTOH, over the cloud covered cirrus disk--just the other way--no AC. However, since the ionosphere, as I decribed, is positively charged and the ocean, negatively charged, and it is difficult to find concentrations of ions like what you would see over an eye, there is little electrical potential in the tropical storm for strikes, even if separations of charges were occurring. Indeed, there is some research that indicates that some of the same charge separating mechanisms that occur in severe weather are not there with respect to tropical storms, but that is another issue altogether.Contrast the tropical with a more frontal like storm--for instance, a tornado cloud, you have a dry line right next to the area of cloud behavior where capacitance is going to be right for an alternating current to pass with a good dielectric value compared to what or how it would behave through a water laden space.That is why pin hole eyes tell you something--of the incredible EMF
organization that underlies the strongest storms. Or vortices in a cyclopes eye--with essentially sub ion points and a ring of negative ions above the eye.When El Nino ended in 1998, there was a 10 degree F. shift in SSTs in
ONE MONTH. That was accompanied by an actual creation, at the same
time, of a THIRD van Allen belt inbetween the electron outer shell
and the proton inner shell. This speaks of an INCREDIBLE electrical
flip that then had a dominating influence on cloud behavior--which
feeds back a cooling impact.The Peruvian fisherman had it right--they considered ENSO in its
biological context of whether there were fish or not. The Japanese
ideas defining ENSO purely thermally based does not, for instance.
Meanwhile, fish have actually evolved EMF sensors! My view is before
a shark could see the EMF image of its prey, the organ was actually a
crude Gaia sensor.Try an experiment. Take water and voltmeter and test its resistance.
Then add salt. Retest.River water is less saline, of course, and the surface of the ocean
is stratified by temperature and salinities.Another experiment. Same salt water solution. Put in microwave. Then
retest. Note that resistance goes down. Heat trapping clouds can't
form as well over certain types of colder ocean conditions because
they are too non-conductive for the clouds to exist. This is why
there is a loose association between tropical storm activity and
ocean SSTs. BUT, gaia is the modulation--as life thrives on the
upwellings, on the materials washed into the biosphere by rivers,
life holds or contains conductive materials near the ocean surface,
and causes an increase in conductivities. Hence, there is a
modulation, and the real coupling is ELECTRICAL and BIOLOGICAL.Finally, take a beer. Test resistance before and after shaking. The research on Felix was about gas exchange--and tropical storms stir the oceans and release gas--dropping ocean resistance. The limited life of most tropical storms is related exactly to the limitations of gas and conductivity increases brought about thereby . . .++++++++++Yahoo News - Latest News & HeadlinesThere are over 3,000 dead in France from a heat wave there. Do any of
you recall my posting the NASA link on an algae bloom off the French
coast?EO - 404 Error
3?img_id=10714Indeed, all of Europe is impacted by the HEAT:EO - 404 Error
3?img_id=10701PTD | Page not foundWhy isn't the bio electrical connection more clear? Is it because we
are just getting these kinds of images and data?The jet stream involved in the France heat wave passed right over the algae patch . . .

This is exactly what I am talking about, dust has a negative charge but the overriding effect is convection currents. Why don't we sorting of dust particles? Because of the overriding and overpowering convection currents compared to a distant and weak ionosphere. I hope you aren't saying that because DNA is in the shape of a double helix that it spins like a corkscrew as it goes through the air. If you think this than I might lose all hope.Without quoting anymore material, handedness does not affect charge or mass so sorting into left and right handedness would not occur if these two criteria were being selected for. You still haven't shown me how much charge via nucleotide within an ice particle or raindrop it takes to overcome the convection. My opinion is that the electrical charge in an ice crystal or raindrop to be influenced by the ionosphere. Even if a nucleotide is present as a free molecule, mass would not sort it (same charge to mass ration no matter the length of any DNA strand, hence the ability to sort in gels by mass because of the physical resistance to large molecules in the gel). Handedness would not sort out, same charge and mass. Single nucleotides or DNA strands would move completely to one charge or another, not intermediately, without sorting according to mass, which won't occur in air. Sorry, not buying it. Simply asserting that it does happen doesn't sell me. I could say that if I rub my hair it will get an overall negative charge, rip out of my head, and leap up into the ionosphere. If I keep repeating that, it doesn't make it true. Oh, and the hair will sort out by color and curliness, just for fun.

Oh please, capacitors can be used for DC and AC. Haven't you ever taken one of the lead off of your car battery and accidently touched another part of the car? Guess what you get, a spark from a capacitor system. Your car is DC, in case you didn't know. They die because they no longer have warm, wet air. It is moisture and differences in barometric pressure that drive these storms. Sorry, still not buying electrically driven storms when rising warm wet air can easily explain it. Thunderstorms here in the western US always occur in the late evening during the summer about an hour before sundown. Why is that you ask? Because the moisture accumulated in the air during the hot day goes from vapor to water as the temperature cools down. Differences in moisture and temperature cause instability and hence strong convection currents. The only electrical currents involved are those that are created by ice crystals as they bang against each other in the already formed thunderhead.

"Capacitors are NOT designed to . . . a capacitor system."This is a good review discussion on capacitors. I stand by my assertion that capacitors are not DESIGNED to pass a direct current, but indeed, your good example of a DC power source sparking is an interesting example of electrons jumping across a large potential difference.Let's review. Ohm's law states that voltage equals current times resistance. Therefore, if you have a huge resistance it takes a large voltages to pass a current. That is why lightning strikes are such high voltages. They have to cross highly resistive air."[Hurricanes] die because . . . created by ice crystals as they bang against each other in the already formed thunderhead."Let me say that in a huge way I have had a big advantage you don't have in that I have observed things in the past few years on the climate/weather bbs I hang out in. This isn't a way to say that what I am going to present is a weak circumstantial case based on emperical observation, but it has afforded me to seen the conclusion and reason backwards in some ways. The best link, which we have been using real time, is located right here:ForbiddenThis is brand new technology--couple of years old.Last year Lili headed for New Orleans and we were watching the storm real time, by visual, IR, and strikes, and the eye "shorted" well like your car battery before landfall. Again, normally a healthy tropical storm will have no strikes--and we have observed this as well as can link you to the peer reviewed science. Now, w/out getting into WHY it shorted, the storm basically went from a near cat 5 and exploding toward a cat 5 to a weak 3. In a matter of hours at most--keep in mind that the stirring of the oceans will increase the conductivity of the oceans by gas exchange, so you will have some mechanical electrical stability independant of what is happening above. It was over warm, tropical water when this happened. Some people argued it was entrained dry air, but that same air was to the NW side of the storm at all times. When the cirrus disk stops being electro mechanically levitated, it takes only a short period of time before the heat trapped by the cirrus is gone, and the storm becomes extra tropical in nature, driven by the Boyles law stuff you appreciate well. If your spend some time w/ us during the tropical storm season, you will see how emperically solid what I am talking about is. With your own eyes kind of appreciation. The other really cool observational stuff has to do with the large eye of the storm that hit North Carolina. For quite some time it was a cat 5 and you could see on the water vapor and IR loops five vortices inside it revolving--the result is a functional ring of low capacitance in a ring, bringing an ability for negative ions over the eye to communicate with the ocean surface and bring positive ion concentrations on the ocean surface at the eye's circumferance . . .Hurricane Andrew also was a five vortices storm--it's electrical organization extremely important to what it was.There are other natural occurances that cannot be explained by thermal means. For instance, the monsoons--but there is a clear mountain to ocean electrical pattern that explains monsoonal conditions quite well . . . For another example, glacial epochs are now being associated with cosmic ray flux--which essentially changes global electrical patterns . . ."[D]ust has a negative charge but the overriding effect is convection currents. Why don't we [see]sorting of dust particles? Because of the overriding and overpowering convection currents compared to a distant and weak ionosphere."We do see dust sorting. During the glacials, the ice cores contain more dust. That is because the dust in fair weather zones attains a relatively POSITIVE charge (a steady 100 to 250 volts per meter positive to ground operates in fair weather zones) only to be attracted convection regions where overall there are large negative to ground voltages. Once there, the dust washes out. If conditions from climate are colder, there is overall less life that increases conductivities and colder, less conductive oceans, and overall, storms decrease, and dust is less removed from the air, only to move in ambaint winds to the regions where the ice coring took place. There are other examples, but that is enough."I hope you aren't saying that because DNA is in the shape of a double helix that it spins like a corkscrew as it goes through the air. If you think this than I might lose all hope."Without quoting anymore material, handedness does not affect charge or mass so sorting into left and right."Let's back up a little bit. First of all, if all of a sudden chemistry was introduced to a cell that lacked the proper handedness in its chemistry, that cell would die. So certainly with respect the feedback loops and proper functioning of a cell, and the fact that all nucleotides are handed, tells us at some point in evolution's history handedness evolved.And it had to evolve out of a fairly even distribution--because when the nucleotides are created in the MIller experiments you have handedness for both sides. Now, that isn't to say that initially, before the helix was too long that there may be a mixture of right and left handed particles, ruled largely by weight and charge. BUT, as the helix became longer, your corkscrew presents an interesting problem. That is, we are talking, again, about a parasol that is moving at a fair clip and at the same time has a charge associated with it.If a small group of water molecules were at one end of the parasol, the nucleotide might extend out of the water. Water, polar, would impact the field differently than the fixed nucleotide, and would experience drag differently than the nucleotide. If the helix spun
one way, it might be removed from the water, and another, embedded more into the droplet.In short, the shape and size of the parasol will impact how it interacts with water, other parasols, and ambiant winds and EMFs. It would then form levels or bands of cirrus and rain together, sorted, to reproduce. What evolved, did, handed."You still haven't shown me how much charge via nucleotide within an ice particle or raindrop it takes to overcome the convection."Abstractly, it gets back to a combination of Ohm's law and capacitance. But convection certainly does exist and separates out charges. This brings down, out of the conductive ionsphere, electrons, and forms the basis for fair weather zones always bringing a positive voltages to ground (or looked at another way, electrons on ground want to move toward the ionosphere). It is a huge capacitive coupling over very large areas and because air is so resistive, but because the voltage is proportional to the area, over larger fair weather zones the voltages are smaller, in the 100-250 volts per meter range. OTOH, over convectiveregions, the cloud cover presents dielectrics that block any capacitive movements, excepting frontal boundries or in eyes . . . and there, if there is humidity in the air, conductivities rise, and large currents can pass. Therefore, near convective centers, there are large transient fields, and large enough voltage differences where parasols indeed find forcings strong enough to levitate them. That is where infra red heat becomes trapped and feeds back more convection, more charge separations. Emperical evidence of this starts with Harris et als, as well as Hartmann/Fu on the cirrus heat trapping ability, AND with the Lindzen 'iris' paper, where merely having the direction of current differences between the North and South Equatorials with the Equatorial results in impedance which causes there to be an inverse relationship between cirrus and cloud wieghted SSTs. The selected area of the Lindzen paper is the West tropical Pacific, which is largely biosphere depleted during La Nina, the time of the study . . .A little off topic, but it turns out there is a wind in the ionosphere called the QBO. My view is that "wind" is nothing more than ions moved in an EMF, much like an electric motor runs. That wind zips along at over 90 mph, and reverses from the top down. The air is ionozed, and therefore conductive, and lite enough to be moved by the weak forces of transient fields by tropical convection patterns (it's located in the tropics). It's direction is indicative of or correlated with tropical storm activity, which is consistant
with my point about what the QBO is and that tropical storms are organize electrically."I could say that if I rub my hair it will get an overall negative charge, rip out of my head, and leap up into the ionosphere. If I keep repeating that, it doesn't make it true. Oh, and the hair will sort out by color and curliness, just for fun."Funny you should say that. Some of the most inovative ideas I had on this subject came a year ago last summer during fair weather periods when my baby daughter was on the tramp and her fine, baby hair stood up, full of static charges. During wet weather, of course, her hair would remain limp, even on the tramp. This got me thinking how particles and currents move relative to humidity and so forth. Much of the specifics about what I am writing contain peer reviewed articles I can link for you if you have specific questions, but mostly, especially with the tropical storm season and the new strike data, I can show you the real time patterns which I am referring to.[This message has been edited by Mike Doran, 12-12-2003]

Mike Doran responds to me:

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The coupling I discuss here is not directly pressures, not heat, not winds,not water/clouds content, but electrical--which then includes all these factors in storm behaviors.

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But that doesn't answer the question. How does the ionosphere manage to affect the ocean from 75 km above? And why doesn't this happen constantly throughout the system?You are simply asserting. Great...so you think it is electrical in nature, but you need to tell us how. How does the electrical field of the ionosphere manage to affect the ocean from such a great distance away and through the neutral atmosphere between the ionosphere and ocean which would act as an insulator?I do not deny the existence of a global electrical circuit. The mere existence of lightning shows it to exist. The question put to you is how your model tells us anything we don't already know.

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There is a device in electronics called a capacitor.

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Yes, I know what a capacitor is.You need to show how the system is accurately described like a capacitor. Mere assertion isn't sufficient. Merely noticing that there are some similarities isn't sufficient. You need to show that it is actually working as one and provide the mechanism.

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Rarely seen lightning fields and purple sprites were detected in the eye of the hurricane by the ER-2 pilot as he flew more than 19.8 km (65,000 ft) above the Atlantic."

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You do realize that you just contradicted yourself, yes? You claimed previously that there is no lighting in the eye of a hurricane and yet here we are detecting what you claim doesn't happen.And if you're looking for a collaborator, why don't you contact the people in this report? They seem to be working right up your alley: Go talk to them for advice.

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Do any of you recall my posting the NASA link on an algae bloom off the French coast?

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Is it possible you have the direction backwards? That it wasn't the algae bloom causing the heat but rather the heat resulted in the algae bloom?Oh, and I don't deny that there is probably a feedback loop involved, at least to some extent, but you need to do more to show your model is accurate rather than nothing more than post hoc musings.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

"How does the ionosphere manage to affect the ocean from 75 km above? And why doesn't this happen constantly throughout the system?You are simply asserting. Great...so you think it is electrical in nature, but you need to tell us how. How does the electrical field of the ionosphere manage to affect the ocean from such a great distance away and through the neutral atmosphere between the ionosphere and ocean which would act as an insulator?"What is discussed is a COUPLING. Look, it is going to be difficult to discuss this unless you are with the climatology. This is NOT easy. If you can track, I will give it to you for being very bright to follow the discussion. The LEADIND skeptic on the subject has a big paper:The recent MIT's Prof. R. S. Lindzen et al AMS article: "Does the
Earth Have an Adaptive Infrared Iris?" is available online. Lindzen's
paper on iris is available at http://ams.allenpress.com/amsonline/?request=get-abstract... for the abstract, and the link "print version" leads to a PDF of the full article.Please read it.My spin on it, is that this paper is self proving of my point, because you have a built in control--the DIRECTION of current of the Equatorials--which leads to an inverse relationship w/ SSTs because warmer SSTs would be more CONDUCTIVE.Read that paper, understand it, and then come back to papa and we can talk.

Mike Doran responds to me:

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Define "sorted."

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In the above post, I described the "handedness" problem.

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We're talking about electrical charge, not isomers. Isomers are electrostatically identical.

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The example, from which there are many, is that there is handedness to the nucleotides when in fact the Miller experiments produced nucleotides without handedness.

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Irrelevant. We're still talking about electric charge, not isomers. How did the electric charge get sorted?

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Therefore, in the process of going from a "dust" to a a band of cirrus

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Um, the large-scale structure of anything that could reasonably be called "dust" would have very little to do with the isomers and everything to do with the crystallization properties.And at any rate, you've changed the subject yet again. We're talking about electrical charges.

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CHARGE (how it spins in DIRECTION relative to a transient field matters in its induced charge orientation

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No, it's the other way around. How it spins in a direction relative to a transient field depends upon the transient field. And a polar molecule isn't electrostatically induced. It's an inherent part of the molecule due to the geometric construction of its chemical bonds.

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you have shown a mechanism by which a sorting could occur, and because you have emperical evidence that in fact sorting DID occur,

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Incorrect.You have merely asserted it...and did so by simply ignoring that you were on one train of thought to jump to another, completely unrelated train.In the end, there is still no mechanism and no actual evidence that what you claim exists actually does.

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For instance, there is the field of biology a growing agreement that there are nucleotides that are "junk".

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Um, evidence?Surely you aren't confusing what is called "'junk' DNA" with the nucleotides that make it up, are you? And while you're at it, you are equivocating on the word "junk." Biologists don't use it the way the average person uses it.

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"And then you need to explain how the miniscule amount of charge on a nucleotide could have an effect upon some as large and amorphous as a cloud. You're simply throwing out terms and claiming that things happen with absolutely no explanation as to how."

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Early in precellular evolution that's all there would be as far as self replicating life, so there would be a lot of it, IMHO.

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That doesn't answer the question. You need to define "a lot." Why is it that a human being, which happens to have quite "a lot" of nucleotides doesn't appear to have any effect?You need to isolate your variables and control for them. You have done nothing of the sort. Heck, you haven't even defined your variables in the first place.Nothing but bluster. Where is the mechanism? Where are the specifics? Less poetry, more substance.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!