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Author Topic:   What is Life?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1724 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 78 of 268 (592996)
11-23-2010 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Dr Adequate
11-23-2010 12:12 PM


Re: Life?
Life is a collection of chemicals that, given the right environmental conditions, can promote their own synthesis through surface catalysis.
Interesting and potentially broad. To me it makes sense to distinguish between collections of chemicals that both promote their own synthesis and do redox chemistry, which I would call "life"; and collections of chemicals that simply replicate, which you define as "life" but I would probably call "proto-life" or "life-like" or something.
I think you have to have a metabolism to be alive. Mere self-replication, in my opinion, doesn't allow for the expansive diversity and complexity that characterizes living things. The crucial step, to me, is metabolism.
Of course, by my definition battery-powered machines could be alive. The minute Roombas start assembling other Roombas, I guess they're alive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2010 12:12 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2010 1:16 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1724 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 83 of 268 (593012)
11-23-2010 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Dr Adequate
11-23-2010 1:16 PM


Re: Life?
Now, can we imagine something which we would like to call "life" having what we would like to call a "metabolism" which use that sort of chemistry instead? Or is there some chemical reason why this is inconceivable?
I don't know if you can "make a living" on acid-base chemistry, because I don't think there's a high enough change in free energy to exploit.
For the most part - and I obviously have no way to be sure this is true, just as you have no way to be sure it's not - I think that the biochemistry of life on Earth, particularly of microbes, is so broad and diverse that it essentially encompasses the width and breadth of all the ways it's possible to "make a living" as a chemistry-based organism in this universe. If it's possible to make a living off of acid-base chemistry we should be able to find an organism on Earth that is.
Could our mitochondria be an example? ATP synthesis in mitochondria is driven by the energy stored as a substantial pH difference between the matrix and the intermembraneous space. The pH gradient is established by a series of proton pumps that are driven by energy from the TCA cycle (if I'm remembering this right.) So there's a way we're all making a living off of pH changes. But, say, the neutralization of acid by base? It's possible, but maybe we don't see it because the little guys get their lunch eaten by the redox guys who outcompete them.
Or is there some chemical reason why this is inconceivable?
I wouldn't say "inconceivable", but perhaps unlikely. Of course, the one thing that's always true in biology is that you can't say that anything is always true in biology.
My gut tells me that viruses should be categorized as life
As full-on life? My gut tells me they're life-like.
I don't expect you to ignore your gut for mine, of course, and I'm happy to accept all forms of disagreement on this issue. I'm certain that my definition will eventually be revealed to exclude something I "know" is life and include something I "know" is not. Yours, too. It's the problem with definitions.
What if this doesn't involve redox chemistry?
Well, I mentioned batteries because batteries operate by redox. (All forms of battery. If it's not redox, it's not a battery. Capacitors, for instance, are not batteries.) But, say, nuclear-powered self-replicating robots? I'm prepared to accept that as life even though we're now talking about "organisms" that engage in no chemistry whatsoever. But I think I'd create a different definition for such creatures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2010 1:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2010 3:00 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1724 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 85 of 268 (593016)
11-23-2010 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Dr Adequate
11-23-2010 3:00 PM


Re: Life?
But if they did, you'd want to call them "life", wouldn't you?
Can I say "it would depend"?
Maybe the definitions game is for mugs, I dunno. Maybe it's just better to go case by case.
You'd want them solar-powered or something.
Sure, ultimately some of them have to be solar-powered, yes.

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 Message 84 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-23-2010 3:00 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1724 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 230 of 268 (598677)
01-01-2011 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Philip Johnson
01-01-2011 6:55 PM


Re: What is the simplest life form?
However, evolutionists believe that it is more likely that a mutation will add to the genome which gradually results in more information in the genome.
No. Evolutionists believe that mutations that add information to the genome are no more or less likely than mutations that remove information from the genome. Evolutionists also believe in natural selection, which tends to preserve those additions or subtractions that are advantageous to the organism.
This has resulted in some organisms gaining information in their genomes over time, and some organisms losing information in their genomes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Philip Johnson, posted 01-01-2011 6:55 PM Philip Johnson has not replied

  
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