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Author Topic:   Obama Gun-control
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 61 of 79 (579548)
09-05-2010 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by bluescat48
09-04-2010 11:29 PM


Re: The Echoing Press
I don't vote that way, I choose, what I consider, the lessor of 2 evils.
In that respect you are agreeing that there are two evils; you choose the one you feel is less evil. But, that doesn't make them NOT evil, which is the point. And a good TV network who's goal is to exploit those "evils" does have plenty of amo to do it with. This inevitably will solidify the beliefs of those who didn't vote for your guy, since he is evil anyway.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by bluescat48, posted 09-04-2010 11:29 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 79 (579664)
09-05-2010 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by onifre
09-04-2010 10:00 PM


Re: The Echoing Press
[qs]He considers himself a Libertarian, and at minute 4:43 he states "I consider myself one of the few conservatives around.":
No, it is absolutely a contradiction in terms. He uses the term libertarian as a contrast with authoritarian which, in a vague sense, is the semantical argument. But no libertarian embraces the socialist policies that he advocates. Then he goes on to say some gross inaccuracies about what Adam Smith and Thomas Jefferson really believed, and then tries to tie libertarianism with socialism.
It's all semantics. But there is no way that libertarians or conservatives would ever embrace Noam Chomsky, the poster child for Leftist policy, as one of their own. His ideological differences are too great.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by onifre, posted 09-04-2010 10:00 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 63 of 79 (579687)
09-05-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by onifre
09-05-2010 12:17 AM


Re: The Echoing Press
But someone who classifies themselves as a conservative and has liberal ideologies as well, IS someone who holds both a liberal and conservative position.
They don't have to hold any conservative positions to say that they're "conservative." That's the point - you can be Noam Chomsky, even, and call yourself a "conservative." You can be pro-choice, for universal health care and government ownership of all property and still call yourself "conservative." You may be lying, or you may be confused about what those words mean, but nobody is going to be able to stop you from using precisely the wrong words to describe your politics, as many Americans unfortunately do (since, frankly, most people don't know what anything means.)
But no one is watching Glee for news.
I don't think people are watching the Daily Show for news, either - I think they're watching it for a laugh, and getting some news by accident.
Not at all the same thing. And the Daily Show is one half-hour show, not even on a broadcast network. The idea that they're the exemplar of the Liberal Media is pretty ridiculous.
Chomsky isn't calling himself a conservative by today's definition, he's calling himself a conservative by a traditional definition.
He's wrong about that, but it's irrelevant - Chomsky is a liberal, not a conservative. He wants things to change, not to stay the same as they are now. That he thinks he wants things to change back to what he thinks they may have been in the past is really very immaterial.
He's just playing a word game, he's trying to put his political philosophy out there in a way where it can't be simply dismissed as "liberal" - but, again, the fact that he's trying to do that proves my point. Conservatives have won a branding victory, not an ideas victory.
This is NOT what he considers traditional conservatism.
But those positions are the conservative ones. Chomsky certainly doesn't hold them, wouldn't you agree? Wouldn't you agree that Chomsky supports universal health care, progressive rates of taxation, generous public benefits and welfare, and a contraction of US foreign policy?
Overwhelmingly liberal positions, in other words?
This is exactly Chomsky's point, the term conservative that he uses is NOT the same as is used in American culture.
So why is it so important for Chomsky to use the word "conservative"? So important, in fact, that he's explaining how he substitutes his own idiosyncratic definition for the definition of "conservative" all the rest of us are using?
Because conservatives won a branding victory. They've convinced people that they want to call themselves conservatives, that they can gain a measure of influence that way. "Conservative" is a name to conjure with - but only as a name. The actual positions of conservatives remain as unpopular as they've ever been. People don't want less government service. They don't want more toll roads. They want abortion to be an option. They don't want prayer in schools, they don't want endless wars of adventure, they don't want tax cuts for the rich.
Nobody wants that stuff - that conservative stuff.
The other so-called conservatives are simply hijacking the word and changed the true meaning of it.
I don't exactly know how he expects any of us to believe that; the John Birch conservatives predate Noam Chomsky by about 50 years. Conservatives were using that term as they use it now for decades before Noam Chomsky ever came around, how does he expect us to believe that he's the one using the "original" definition?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by onifre, posted 09-05-2010 12:17 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by onifre, posted 09-07-2010 11:28 AM crashfrog has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 64 of 79 (579700)
09-05-2010 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by xongsmith
09-05-2010 12:11 AM


Re: The Echoing Press
xongsmith writes:
Omni's post had a misattributed quote box
Sorry 'bout that. I'll fix it.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by xongsmith, posted 09-05-2010 12:11 AM xongsmith has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 65 of 79 (579708)
09-05-2010 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Artemis Entreri
09-02-2010 4:20 PM


dunno abbout the usa, but im quite happy whit the gun laws in slovenija, you can own any gun, but no exsplosive devices rpgs, granades.... and why would you unless you want to blow up somthing that you shouldent. and to get a gun you havto pass a psihiatrick test once evry few years, and a test that you know how to use it. (so that crayzie ppl that want to shoot at ppl for no reason cant get them and that incometante ppl cant get them so they dont shoot themselves), and once a year or is it 2 years you haveto get the gun tested so that it works properly so you dont endangere others and yourself and that they know you havent sold the gun to sombody who shoulden have it. its a bit more of a bother than going to a gun store whit an id then waiting 3 days but whe dont have as many ppl shooting at each other maybe one or 2 per year.
if you want to own a gun yus so you can bost to your friends you can have it made unusable so you can still show off whit it but you cant fire it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Artemis Entreri, posted 09-02-2010 4:20 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2010 7:14 PM frako has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 66 of 79 (579717)
09-05-2010 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by frako
09-05-2010 6:52 PM


Hey, Frako, interesting post and welcome to the forum.
I wonder - is it possible for someone in Slovenia to download the American version of a browser like Firefox or Chrome and gain access to the English spellchecker? I was thinking maybe that would help you a little with your English posts, which are otherwise, you know, not that bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by frako, posted 09-05-2010 6:52 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by frako, posted 09-06-2010 5:44 AM crashfrog has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 67 of 79 (579810)
09-06-2010 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by crashfrog
09-05-2010 7:14 PM


haha it is possible i just have to set it to spell check english words, not Slovenian.
i usually get the writing confused whit German writing.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2010 7:14 PM crashfrog has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 68 of 79 (579825)
09-06-2010 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Coyote
09-03-2010 7:25 PM


Re: The Echoing Press
Yet the national elections come out very close to evenly balanced. Perhaps you are erroneously thinking your views are those of the mainstream.
You might have a point if we had high voter participation, but we don't.
What the country's population thinks about various issues is not the same as what most voters think about the issues.
This is why, historically and currently, it is Republicans who work very hard to keep people from voting, and Democrats work hard to get people to vote.
When more people vote, Democrats tend to win elections.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Coyote, posted 09-03-2010 7:25 PM Coyote has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 69 of 79 (580036)
09-07-2010 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Hyroglyphx
09-05-2010 1:33 PM


Re: The Echoing Press
But no libertarian embraces the socialist policies that he advocates.
What??? That's just not true.
See here: Libertarian Socialism
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-05-2010 1:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-07-2010 5:54 PM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 70 of 79 (580039)
09-07-2010 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by crashfrog
09-05-2010 4:26 PM


Re: The Echoing Press
They don't have to hold any conservative positions to say that they're "conservative."
I believe saying you're conservative IS holding a conservative position.
I don't think people are watching the Daily Show for news, either - I think they're watching it for a laugh, and getting some news by accident.
Are you not going to acknowledge the study from Indiana Univ.?
You said originally that NO ONE in the field considers him real news. I think I've provided you with enough evidence to show you that is not true. And the study from Indiana Univ. confirms that. If you care to read it.
At least concede on somethings so we can move on past our original disagreements. But I have to know that you can concede when you are wrong and won't just keep changing your points.
Chomsky is a liberal, not a conservative.
Fine, and you can debate the finer points with him.
But this wasn't our original disagreement. I said HE considers himself a Libertarian and a conservative. YOU said none of that was true. I think I have provided yuo with enough evidence to prove I was right.
Please concede so we can move past this disagreement, then we can debate the finer points if you want. I'll even start another thread for it. But I have to know that you can concede when you are wrong and won't just keep changing your points.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 09-05-2010 4:26 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by crashfrog, posted 09-07-2010 11:35 AM onifre has replied
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-07-2010 5:57 PM onifre has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 71 of 79 (580040)
09-07-2010 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by onifre
09-07-2010 11:28 AM


Re: The Echoing Press
I believe saying you're conservative IS holding a conservative position.
That's stupid.
Are you not going to acknowledge the study from Indiana Univ.?
I'm pretty sure I just did. To repeat myself: "I don't think people are watching the Daily Show for news, either - I think they're watching it for a laugh, and getting some news by accident."
At least concede on somethings so we can move on past our original disagreements.
Again, the notion that you can point to one fake news show on the comedy channel and say "there; that's your liberal media just like conservatives have" is so transparently ridiculous that I can't believe you're still supporting that notion, or that you think your Indiana study somehow buttresses it.
I said HE considers himself a Libertarian and a conservative. YOU said none of that was true.
Yes. It's not true that he's a libertarian or a conservative, regardless of what he says. Noam Chomsky is a liberal. He's like the nation's most infamous liberal, for Christ's sake.
Please concede so we can move past this disagreement, then we can debate the finer points if you want.
How about you concede so we can move past it? Your points are less supported than mine, after all.
But I have to know that you can concede when you are wrong and won't just keep changing your points.
Oni, I've admitted when I'm wrong more than any other poster at EvC. I just don't admit to being wrong when I'm not wrong. Maybe you could demonstrate your willingness to admit to being wrong at this juncture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by onifre, posted 09-07-2010 11:28 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by onifre, posted 09-08-2010 5:57 PM crashfrog has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 79 (580098)
09-07-2010 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by onifre
09-07-2010 11:15 AM


Re: The Echoing Press
What??? That's just not true.
I'm aware that rare people call themselves as such, but it is an oxymoron.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by onifre, posted 09-07-2010 11:15 AM onifre has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 79 (580099)
09-07-2010 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by onifre
09-07-2010 11:28 AM


Re: The Echoing Press
I said HE considers himself a Libertarian and a conservative.
That may be, but he's not. As Crash said, he's probably the most liberal person in all of America (slight hyperbole on my part) .

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by onifre, posted 09-07-2010 11:28 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Omnivorous, posted 09-07-2010 6:16 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 78 by onifre, posted 09-08-2010 6:18 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 74 of 79 (580100)
09-07-2010 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Hyroglyphx
09-07-2010 5:57 PM


Re: The Echoing Press
Hyroglyphx writes:
onifre writes:
I said HE considers himself a Libertarian and a conservative.
That may be, but he's not. As Crash said, he's probably the most liberal person in all of America (slight hyperbole on my part) .
The political spectrum (even in the U.S.) continues past the Liberal goalpost.
The most liberal person is America is somewhere to my right.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-07-2010 5:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 75 of 79 (580113)
09-07-2010 8:01 PM


i had to do a general reply, I was in tha ATL for a few days for DragonCon, and I could not get to a PC.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hooah212002 writes:
Well, had I thought you had a valid concern other than liberal bashing and tea party madness:
that's an odd delusion since I never mentioned anything about the tea party.
hooah212002 writes:
I might have some better discourse. But since it is blatantly obvious you are a faux news-o-phile and are just spewing rhetoric, I don't thing actual discussion will prove to be worthwhile...especially since you cannot differentiate between your and you're.
ahahahaha attack spelling and grammar are the death throes of someone who cannot argue their point effectively. BTW do you know the difference between thing and think? It's pretty sad to attack my spelling and then misspell words yourself, LOL.
yeah well co-out of this if you want to, I mean you have already brought up hitler, tea parties, and a bunch of other things i never mentioned, you stepping out is probably the best thing you could do at this point.
ominvourus writes:
But you want to treat a policy difference as a political crisis, a betrayal of our constitutional rights and values. "I knew we couldn't trust Obama!"
this is about the Obama admin, Hilary Clinton has an equal blame in this. Obama himself did not make this call.
Now political differences cause conservatives to denounce the president as a Muslim, a fascist, a communist, a traitor: any damage to the republic is okay as long as it takes Obama with it.
we learned well from those who oppsed G. W. Bush, and now they cannot take thier own medicen, it's quite hilarious to me.
And do you think Obama personally makes all decisions for the State Department? Maybe that was Hillary, punishing the right for the way they tried to destroy Bill's presidency with investigations of Blow Jobs, Gov. Clinton Drug Running, and Secret White House Homicides.
of course not, though I will not speculate on her motives.
crashfrog writes:
Guns should be controlled because of their incredible utility for murder. Gun control does not infringe your rights under the Second Amendment, which presents a qualified right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of the security of the state. That means that owning arms is subordinate to what we need to do to keep people safe.
Unlike the First Amendment, which is unqualified, the right to keep and bear arms under the Second Amendment is a fundamentally qualified one.
I am sorry but you are mistaken. The 1st could never exist without the 2nd. It is an individual right, and it is unalienable. I'll keep myself safe, but thanks for your concern.
ominvourus writes:
We are at a dangerous crossroad, and the danger is from the right.
it really depends which direction you are going, is that the south, north, east or west?
omnivourus writes:
If it works this time on the right, it is difficult to see why Democrats would not repay the courtesies.
I was following you on the conservative liberal thing, but quicky you show us the partisan that you truely are, there are conservative Democrats out there, (they are the Democrats that I'd vote for), your blindness that liberals are one party and conservatives are another totally ruins your opinion for me. I see who you are now.
taq writes:
I suppose that Obama has control over ebay as well?
obviously you have no idea how to make a firearms purchase, or you troll very poorly.
corapyps writes:
What do you think the chances are that Mr Obama even knew of this "M1 crisis" ahead of time? Or that he knows of it now? Don't you think that the man might have weightier matters to worry about?
of course he probably didn't know, but it was his admin.
onifre writes:
And just to stay on topic:
If all AE is hanging on is, "Obama promised," then brotha, stand in line behind the 200,000 troups who have been waiting for a looooonnnnnggggg time to come home and were promised they would.
lol I like the side note. I quit listening to Obama when he was my senator.
crashfrog writes:
No, actually, not all that many people listen to them. Less than 80,000 people showed up to Beck's rally last weekend - far fewer than the "500,000" he claimed to have drawn.
we're you there? I drove by (down constitution ave/US route 50) on my way to the Baseball Game, and there was alot more than 80,000 people there.
crashfrog writes:
Right wing guys are inflating their numbers. Glenn Beck's show on Fox operates at a net loss, just like it did on CNN. Most of the book sales of people like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly are sales to themselves; they, or conservative organizations on their behalf, buy up thousands of boxes of their books they never intend to sell and either give them away or pulp them, just to inflate the sales figures of the right.
wow got any other great conspiracies? lulz.
Fuck 'em.
That's the attitude, Lebowski.
coyote writes:
Yet the national elections come out very close to evenly balanced. Perhaps you are erroneously thinking your views are those of the mainstream.
haha, WORD.
Taq writes:
To get back to the topic, the right wing militia movement has been around for about 30 years now. From the very start they have been claiming that at any moment the FBI is going to come down on everyone and take away their guns. They claim that it could happen next month, and when it doesn't they claim it will happen next month. When you hear "WOLF" cried for the upteenth thousandth time, what are you supposed to say?
The problem is that the things both the left and the right should BOTH care about is drowned out by misinformation from the right. I am not saying that the left is some pristine virgin free of all sin, but there really is no comparison.
this is really starting to get entertaining in a comedic way.
quote:
The price of freedom and liberty is eternal vigilance.
After the debacle know as the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, I doubt the Democrats (as a whole) will be willing to try something like that again for a long time.
you call it crying wolf, even though two very such events occured, one at Ruby Ridge, Idaho in the late summer of 1992, and another in Waco, Texas in 1993. both involved the FBI, and the ATF.
crashfrog writes:
There aren't any "left" news sources.
maybe not in Lincoln.
crashfrog writes:
All the "bipartisanship" people remember in the "good ol' days" was bipartisanship only in name; it was conservative Dems voting with conservative Republicans to promote conservative ideas, and liberal Dems voting with liberal Republicans to promote liberal ideas. But that was a unique and idiosyncratic time in American politics; what's happened since isn't some kind of unusual increase in partisanship, it's been a renormalizing of political parties along completely traditional ideological grounds.
quote:
It isn't that liberals are ignorant, It's just that they know so much that isn't so.
the parties are probably not as solid as you think they are, there is quite a minory of conservative democrats around. for example the Blue Dog coalition is currently 23% of the Democratic seats in the house. There were some critical reforms of the new Obamacare that needed to be in place in order for all the democrats to vote for it, of course it is not widely reported, but it still takes place.
Tram Law writes:
Why would the Government forbid the sale from South Korea?
America is a trading partner with S.K., correct?
And plus, the M1s are legal in America, if somewhat restricted by a background check.
So the official reasons don't really make any sense to me. I wonder if something else is going on behind the scenes.
that was really on par with my line of thinking, but rather than talk about it civily (I mean this is EvC), I am strawmaned into a Fox news Fan, and some Neocon, Nazi, militia memeber. its quite funny to me that only a few ppl on here can actually see the issues, while everyone else just wants to curse and call each other names.
crashfrog writes:
In many cases, they don't even know what those polices are.
If you think that traditional conservativepolicies are: traditional marriage values, opposition to abortion, and interventionist foreign policy then I don't think you have any idea what Conservatism is about either.
Hey Frako, I don't really know how to respond to you, though I wish we could go to the range, and I'll show you how good of a shot I am (I need much practise in the rifle category, I'm competant in shotguns, pistols are really my strong suit).

Replies to this message:
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