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Author Topic:   The 6 stages of an EvC argument
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 16 of 29 (575771)
08-21-2010 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by sac51495
08-21-2010 1:49 AM


Re: Oh, yay.
archieish
I'm pretty sure that was an implicit reference to the debate with member archaeologist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sac51495, posted 08-21-2010 1:49 AM sac51495 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 17 of 29 (575822)
08-21-2010 7:07 AM


Several of the messages posted seemed to imply that creationists mostly understand when they've lost a debate, and I don't think that's they way they see it, so I thought I'd offer my own thoughts.
I think most here would agree that those least able to participate in constructive discussion draw their ranks primarily from the creationists. There's a good reason for this: those arguing the position of science are fighting on their home turf. For most creationists science is foreign and very unfamiliar territory. To use archaeologist as an example, he seems to know very little about anything except how to keep a discussion from getting anywhere, often by arguing two contradictory positions while never seeming to notice. Click on the link and read his threads. For a more complex example, read the still active The End of Evolution By Means of Natural Selection thread and see Faith exhibit the same behavior.
What drives this behavior is a certainty that they're right, and so when they leave this site it isn't because they feel they've lost, but for other reasons, few of them good. They feel they've either been treated unfairly, or lied to, or ganged up on, or misrepresented, or misunderstood, or ridiculed, or not taken seriously, etc. None of these reasons a creationist might have for abandoning the debate do anything to advance the understanding and acceptance of evolution and science by the conservatively religious community.
So I think our challenge should be to increase the chances that a creationist might come away from EvC Forum with positive feelings. I don't think convincing them that evolution is true is as important as giving them an understanding that those who accept evolution are human beings honestly seeking meaning just like themselves.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by xongsmith, posted 08-21-2010 12:41 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 18 of 29 (575840)
08-21-2010 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by sac51495
08-21-2010 1:49 AM


Re: Oh, yay.
I was referring the message 10 by Nij when was comparing the creationists as
Nij writes:
a "nice" creo (Buz, etc.) and the second is what happens with a "not nice" creo (archie, etc.).
and I stated that some of the evos were similar
archieish was in relation to archie, like archie in their responses.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sac51495, posted 08-21-2010 1:49 AM sac51495 has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 19 of 29 (575858)
08-21-2010 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Percy
08-21-2010 7:07 AM


Our fearless leader says:
So I think our challenge should be to increase the chances that a creationist might come away from EvC Forum with positive feelings. I don't think convincing them that evolution is true is as important as giving them an understanding that those who accept evolution are human beings honestly seeking meaning just like themselves.
Very well said! Applause!

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 20 of 29 (575881)
08-21-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by nwr
08-20-2010 2:25 PM


Re: No E versis C debate? Say What?
nwr writes:
I think, if a creationist were to join the site with the aim of simply joining the discussion (rather than refuting evolution), they could actually have a reasonably pleasant time. But that is not the way most creationists approach the site.
LOL. You gotta be kidding, NWR. (here it comes) I can't believe you said that.
I didn't come here just to listen and say, "yes, yes, amen, amen." I came here because I know by personal experience, by historical data relative to fulfilled prophecy and by logic that the Biblical record has evidence verifying it's validity. I came here like little David when he came to the battlefront to deliver lunch to his warrior brothers. He observed the opposition who's giant appeared to be invincible and needed to be dealt with before Israel could advance.
I came, first to assess the battle/debate; then to engage in debate, learning by setbacks, mistakes and positions of the opposition how to engage more effectively and then to move more aggressively to the offensive. I remain, being ever more convinced that the Biblical record is more compatible with the basic laws of science, with the historical record and with proper interpretation of all that is observed, particularly the complexity of existing things indicative of intelligent design.
Nobody will ever be able to claim victory (in this life), but as iron sharpens iron whether we all agree or not, we all become wiser and more knowledgeable having mixed it up in these debates.
Nothing could be more boring for the choir or the preacher than for the preacher to be preaching to the choir. I tried some creationist sites. Most show more as much or more bias by the majority POV in comparison with EvC. By and large, the level of membership intelligence at EvC surpasses most debate boards which I've visited.
Besides, NWR, you all would be bored to death and leave if all we creationists did was to have congenial little cake and icecream parties here joining in with you infidels and ne're refuting your godless, naturalist and secularist ToE positions, Jehovah being blasphemed and his Biblical record being undermined. Without evolutionist debate EvC (evolution vs creationism) would've withered away and died long ago.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 08-20-2010 2:25 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 08-21-2010 3:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 22 by bluegenes, posted 08-21-2010 3:18 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 08-21-2010 3:39 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 29 (575883)
08-21-2010 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
08-21-2010 3:05 PM


Re: No E versis C debate? Say What?
I came here like little David when he came to the battlefront to deliver lunch to his warrior brothers. He observed the opposition who's giant appeared to be invincible and needed to be dealt with before Israel could advance.
That's NWR's point, I think. You showed up to fight so naturally you get into fights.
Maybe if you showed up to learn you might learn something. Wouldn't that be better than fighting?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2010 3:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 22 of 29 (575885)
08-21-2010 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
08-21-2010 3:05 PM


Unarmed
Buzsaw writes:
I came here like little David when he came to the battlefront to deliver lunch to his warrior brothers. He observed the opposition who's giant appeared to be invincible and needed to be dealt with before Israel could advance.
It's a pity you forgot your slingshot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2010 3:05 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2010 5:56 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 23 of 29 (575893)
08-21-2010 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
08-21-2010 3:05 PM


Re: No E versis C debate? Say What?
Buzsaw writes:
I didn't come here just to listen and say, "yes, yes, amen, amen."
That is not what I was suggesting.
I certainly expect creationists to come here, present their positions, and read the evolutionist responses. And I don't expect them to suddenly agree with the evolutionists. But they should be able to recognize when they have reached the point that they have already presented their best argument. They can then allow the record of the debate to stand at that point, and not become emotional about it.
To some extent, that is what happened in Underlying Philosophy. I doubt that sac51495 was persuaded by any of the opposing arguments, and I doubt that he changed the minds of any atheists. I hope that he at least has a better idea now about how atheists and agnostics view the issues. And I think his opponents do now have a better idea as to what was the position that he was presenting.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2010 5:23 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 29 (575903)
08-21-2010 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by nwr
08-21-2010 3:39 PM


Re: No E versis C debate? Say What?
nwr writes:
But they should be able to recognize when they have reached the point that they have already presented their best argument.
LOL, NWR. When secularists admit to one miracle such as one verifiable fulfilled Biblical prophecy, you can then chide creationists for ongoing, seemingly endless debates.
nwr writes:
They can then allow the record of the debate to stand at that point, and not become emotional about it.
LOL again. When it comes to letting records stand and getting emotional, obviously your memory fails on this account. You've not been on the receiving end of emotional evolutionists, often demeaning, engaging in personal attack, resorting to expletive profanity and cursings.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 08-21-2010 3:39 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 08-21-2010 5:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 29 (575907)
08-21-2010 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Buzsaw
08-21-2010 5:23 PM


Re: No E versis C debate? Say What?
When secularists admit to one miracle such as one verifiable fulfilled Biblical prophecy
When you can demonstrate one, we will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2010 5:23 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 29 (575911)
08-21-2010 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by bluegenes
08-21-2010 3:18 PM


Re: Unarmed
bluegenes writes:
Buzsaw writes:
I came here like little David when he came to the battlefront to deliver lunch to his warrior brothers. He observed the opposition who's giant appeared to be invincible and needed to be dealt with before Israel could advance.
It's a pity you forgot your slingshot.
Oh, but I have my little sling string and some little smooth stones. They're called logic and reasoning.
Unlike the mighty army of Goliath and the Philistine army, clad with heavy armor, charriots and swordsmen on horses David came with an effective little herdsman sling and the knowledge of how effective it could be, having killed wild beasts with it in the wilderness as a lowly herdsman.
Evolutionists come here having high degrees certifying completion of the assembly line required by elitist peers to be considered authorities on science, sometimes defying logic and reason.
There are times when logic and reason either prevails over or promotes vigorous debate over mysterious theories derived upon things like complicated QM and String matmatical conclusions.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by bluegenes, posted 08-21-2010 3:18 PM bluegenes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 08-21-2010 6:19 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 08-22-2010 6:48 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 29 (575912)
08-21-2010 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
08-21-2010 5:56 PM


Re: Unarmed
Evolutionists come here having high degrees certifying completion of the assembly line required by elitist peers to be considered authorities on science, sometimes defying logic and reason.
Buz, think it through. Like, the back quarter of every single one of my textbooks is the bibliography. Do you think there was anything I was told in the past 3 years of biochemistry (some of which being graduate courses I'm taking as an undergrad) that I couldn't look up and verify the evidence for, myself? Much of it I was asked to prove myself, in the lab.
If I'm being fed a steady stream of evolutionary bullshit, then why am I sitting here amidst this enormous pile of evidence? Where did it all come from? How was I able to complete the experiments proving evolution if evolution doesn't exist? If your Biblical prophecies are supposedly so airtight, why can you never stand up and defend them?
If you're the one who's got it right, why does nobody seem to think you're the one who knows what he's talking about? If you know more biology than me, why am I getting the degree in it and you're not?
You talk about sense but your positions make no sense.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2010 5:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 28 of 29 (575980)
08-22-2010 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
08-21-2010 5:56 PM


Re: Unarmed
Buzsaw writes:
Oh, but I have my little sling string and some little smooth stones. They're called logic and reasoning.
As Feynman said, the easiest person to fool is ourself. You're your own sucker.
The ability to employ logic and reasoning is judged by others, not by ourselves. Slevesque holds views similar to your own. Read the replies he draws and see how others appreciate his logic and reasoning. Contrast those replies to ones to your own messages.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2010 5:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 29 of 29 (575982)
08-22-2010 7:01 AM


Oi, get yor own!
Excuse me gennelmin (and gennelminnesses, if they're here), but I believe the topic of this thread is the various stages by which an EvC debate usually follows.
While your posts may be useful as examples of the "derailing" substage, could you perhaps find a more appropriate locale for the arguments regarding why people joined this site, the relevance of formal education in science debatees, the existence of miracles, etc..
Pretty please?

  
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