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Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.7 |
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Author | Topic: Phil Plait - Don't be a dick | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bolder-dash Member (Idle past 3630 days) Posts: 983 From: China Joined: |
So, let me just be clear here. When Taq wrote that his religion of atheism was similar to that of being a non-golfer, or a non-stamp collector, you feel he was basically lying then, right?
Because actually, as you are expressing, atheists think religion is bad for society, and thus that is why they use all of their efforts to censor, denounce, stifle, badger, and otherwise try to control the discussion of evolution. Just so we are clear on your motives, as if we weren't already.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Bolder-dash writes:
No we don't. In fact, we are in favour of discussions about evolution. What we are against is the bat shit crazy stuff creationists come up with, that is not evolution, but which they like to equate to it anyway.
Because actually, as you are expressing, atheists think religion is bad for society, and thus that is why they use all of their efforts to censor, denounce, stifle, badger, and otherwise try to control the discussion of evolution.
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Taq writes: Yes, it is very similar to the sport of not playing golf, or the hobby of not collecting stamps. Bolder-dash writes:
Most of the people who don't play religion also don't sit around and come up schemes to convince others to not play religion.
No, people who don't play golf don't sit around and come up with the best schemes they can think of to convince others not to play golf.
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Percy Member Posts: 22393 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Bolder-dash writes: No, people who don't play golf don't sit around and come up with the best schemes they can think of to convince others not to play golf. Your analogy is biased, but we can fix it up a bit. In your analogy the people who play don't play golf are the atheists, and you're saying that when people who don't play golf try to convince golfers to stop playing that it is like atheists trying to convince Christians not to worship Christ. But coaxing Christians away from Christianity isn't of much interest to atheists in general. Most atheists probably believe everyone should follow their own heart, and while they might find other people's need to believe in a greater power puzzling, most wouldn't care enough about religion to bother. But in the context of the creation/evolution debate we do know that it is common for those who accept science to try to convince creationists away from creationism. Why do they do that? Why don't they just leave the creationists alone? The answer is that creationists lobby school boards, textbook publishers and legislatures to increase the attention given creationism and to decrease that given evolution. Since creationism is a religious and not a scientific idea, these creationist efforts are a threat to quality science education. Anyone who loves or at least appreciates science would oppose these efforts to promote creationism. So let's fix up your analogy now. What we have is golfers playing golf who stop minding their own business and go down to town hall to convince the councilman to change the rules of tennis to be more like golf. Naturally the tennis players are going to object. A big uproar ensues. If the golfers had minded their own business and stayed on their golf courses nothing would have happened. Because this is you I'll explain the analogy. Golfers lobbying the town council to change the rules of tennis is like IDers going to school boards and asking them to change the rules of science. Naturally citizens who know the difference between science and religion are going to object. --Percy
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Percy writes: Because this is you I'll explain the analogy. Hey, I thought you were on the don't be a dick side of the fence?! TTFN, WK
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
I really don't know where you got this from;
So, let me just be clear here. When Taq wrote that his religion of atheism was similar to that of being a non-golfer, or a non-stamp collector, you feel he was basically lying then, right? No. I agree with him. You are acting as though you have revealed some great contradiction here. You haven't.
Because actually, as you are expressing, atheists think religion is bad for society, This is false. Not all atheists think this way. There are some who are less hostile to religion, and even some who regret not being able to believe in religions they wish were true. My point is that given that many atheists do believe that religion harms society, you should not be surprised when some of us speak out against it. This does not, however, make atheism a religion, any more than criticising drug abuse constitutes a form of drug abuse.
and thus that is why they use all of their efforts to censor, denounce, stifle, badger, and otherwise try to control the discussion of evolution. Only some atheists are actively engaged in efforts to dissuade others from religious belief. There are many other atheists who are not so engaged, who don't much care whether people are religious or not. I suspect that your perceptions of the average atheist have been coloured by your experiences. Message boards like this will have many members who like to actively debate religion, but they are obviously less likely to have members who are completely apathetic about the subject. Mutate and Survive "A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod
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Percy Member Posts: 22393 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Wounded King writes: Hey, I thought you were on the don't be a dick side of the fence?! I really haven't been myself lately since I was exposed to that gamma bomb blast. Hey, I'm the Incredible Opus! --Percy
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2698 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Granny.
You have to admit: you were kind of sending mixed signals there. Dash disagreed with Taq's analogy, and, instead of confirming the appropriateness of the analogy, you confirmed the failure of it in at least one aspect. I was able to make the connection myself, but I can also see why Dash got the wrong idea from it. ----- Furthermore, I think your "criticism of drug abuse is not drug abuse" analogy is pretty poor, as well, because, while religion and criticism of religion are analogous in the sense of being epistemological positions (and thus, could easily be mistaken as parallel endeavors), drug abuse and criticism of drug abuse are not really analogous to each other in any meaningful way. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Hi Bluejay,
Dash disagreed with Taq's analogy, and, instead of confirming the appropriateness of the analogy, you confirmed the failure of it in at least one aspect. I'm sorry, I don't quite follow you. Which aspect? The stamp collecting and golf metaphors are not intended to compare the seriousness of stamp-collecting/golf and religion, nor their impact on society.
Furthermore, I think your "criticism of drug abuse is not drug abuse" analogy is pretty poor, as well, because, while religion and criticism of religion are analogous in the sense of being epistemological positions (and thus, could easily be mistaken as parallel endeavors), drug abuse and criticism of drug abuse are not really analogous to each other in any meaningful way. Agreed. I couldn't think of a better metaphor at the time. A better comparison might be that fascism is a political philosophy, just as anti-fascism might be called a political philosophy (of sorts). This doesn't mean though, that by critiquing fascism, one becomes a fascist. In neither the drug abuse metaphor, nor the fascism metaphor do I intend to imply that religion is morally equivalent to either (in fact, some drugs are quite harmless. ). I just chose extreme examples in order to highlight how ludicrous BD's position is. BD seems to be suggesting that in opposing religion, atheists prove themselves to actually be religious. We do not become fascists merely by opposing fascism, nor do all atheists become religious merely because there exists a semi-organised campaign against religion. Mutate and Survive Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given. "A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
By day a comatose, hairball spitting remnant of feline crapulence by night a mild mannered, dandelion addicted Sphenisciform ... its Bloom County Man!!!
TTFN, WK
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 285 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
People who don't collect stamps don't try to subvert the world of philately ... And no stamp collector ever started a holy war for the greater glory of the Treskilling Yellow, or tortured votaries of the Inverted Jenny, or burned numismatists at the stake. But the fact that religious people take their little hobby so much more seriously than philatelists does not really affect the aptness of the analogy.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Bolder-dash writes: No there is in fact no comparison at all to the tactics used by atheists to control, stifle and censor the discussions of evolution, to the lack of tactics and scheming used by people who don't collect stamps. I'm sorry but that is simply a false and quite honestly a silly assertion. No one tries to stifle or censor the discussions of evolution. The reality is that Creationists and ID supporters seem to be absolutely clueless about even how to go about supporting their positions. BUT.. there is hope. In the thread How can "Creationism" be supported? I provided some guidance that may help you or others at least learn what it is you need to do. Read it over. Then once you understand what your goal is, see if you can present an argument in support of your position. There is always hope. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Yes, I understand, you want the world to have YOUR worldview. Isn't that why you're here? Or is convincing people only OK when creationists are doing it?
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined:
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Percy writes:
quote: When you read other people's minds, do you have to tune into them and focus upon their thoughts, or do they just spring into your head unbidden? Are you constantly hearing the voices of other people in your head or is it something you can turn on and off at whim? Considering that both Myers and Dawkins have directly and specifically contradicted your characterization of their position, how does that affect yours? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
No, people who don't play golf don't sit around and come up with the best schemes they can think of to convince others not to play golf. The question here is whether or not atheism is a religion. Convincing others of your conclusion is not a religion. It is called discussion and debate.
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