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Author Topic:   Conservative = Christian?
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 1 of 51 (574624)
08-16-2010 10:42 PM


One thing that's been on my mind lately is the shift in thinking in what the word Conservative means. One quote by Marc9000 in the "separation of church and state" thread struck me
Strange how some scientific posters see separation of church and state in the first amendment, but don’t see freedom of speech for conservatives there.
EvC Forum: Separation of church and state
It seems to me he was talking about his Christian views and not Conservatives. Is this common and is this what most think a Conservative is now?
There is no doubt the Republican party has wrapped itself around Religion and every election Cycle it becomes more and more apparent. Issues in most elections have become about Christian beliefs and "morals"
What does this mean for a two party System? How is this possibly a good thing for the political climate?
I suspect this is one of the reasons the Democratic party is incapable of rallying around anything. Multiple views are all crammed into a single party. If you support Gay rights or support Full Separation of Church you're magically a democrat "Liberal" when this is obviously far from the truth.

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2 of 51 (574626)
08-16-2010 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
08-16-2010 10:42 PM


DC85 writes:
It seems to me he was talking about his Christian views and not Conservatives.
Probably.
DC85 writes:
There is no doubt the Republican party has wrapped itself around Religion and every election Cycle it becomes more and more apparent. Issues in most elections have become about Christian beliefs and "morals" .
That's not quite correct. The Republicans went after the right wing religious voters. They also tried to pick up the racist vote. They now seem to be going after the anti-islamic bigotry vote, too.
There are conservatives among the Democrats. They tend to be fiscal conservatives, rather than religious conservatives.
DC85 writes:
What does this mean for a two party System?
I am beginning to suspect that the nation is doomed, though I sure hope I am wrong. The Republican party seems to be so consumed with hatred and negativism, that they seem to be willing to allow the nation to fail as a step toward achieving their agenda.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 51 (574627)
08-16-2010 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
08-16-2010 10:42 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
DC85 writes:
One thing that's been on my mind lately is the shift in thinking in what the word Conservative means.
The meaning of concervative is to conserve the status quo. It is a relative word. In Saudi Arabia it would mean to conserve Sharia and Quranic principles. In Russia it would mean to conserve totalitarian socialistic principles. In the US it would mean to conserve the Judeo-Christian principles and the Constitutional republic based largely upon Biblical principles.
Since the founders founded a republic (republican) and not a democracy (democrat) the tennants of the Republicans has traditionally been more conservative than those of the Democrats.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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 Message 1 by DC85, posted 08-16-2010 10:42 PM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by nwr, posted 08-17-2010 12:25 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-17-2010 7:38 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 11 by Theodoric, posted 08-17-2010 9:32 AM Buzsaw has not replied
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 Message 13 by misha, posted 08-17-2010 11:47 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 4 of 51 (574629)
08-16-2010 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
08-16-2010 11:18 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
In the US it would mean to conserve the Judeo-Christian principles and the Constitutional republic based largely upon Biblical principles.
Yet these ideas weren't huge with Republicans until recently Buzz.... Perhaps this isn't the case?
Since the founders founded a republic (republican) and not a democracy (democrat)
Yet the republicans constantly scream about "The will of the People" and majority rules. This is evident with The Prop 8. decision.. I think you need to look at how you define these things again.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 5 of 51 (574631)
08-16-2010 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
08-16-2010 11:18 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
Buzsaw writes:
The meaning of concervative is to conserve the status quo.
So the status quo that the founders meant to conserve included slavery and no votes for women?

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 6 of 51 (574632)
08-17-2010 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
08-16-2010 11:54 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
Ringo asks of Buzzsaw:
So the status quo that the founders meant to conserve included slavery and no votes for women?
Yes, I don't think Dr. M.L.King would have characterized himself as a conservative. But Christian? Oh yeah, all the way, baby.
Indeed, what I, a mere commie pinko kneejerk libtard socialist feminist atheist croquet player, want to conserve the most is that aspect of the constitution of the U.S. government that allows it to change and morph into new forms when needed. This ability to change has to be preserved at all costs. On that I am very conservative! However, there may be several things that should not be changed (changing the word "men" to "intelligent life forms" is certainly okay with me, but all are still endowed with those certain inalienable rights - no matter what changes they try to make).
OT: Anybody for Nomic?
OT: Mornington Crescent?

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 7 of 51 (574633)
08-17-2010 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
08-16-2010 11:18 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
Buzsaw writes:
The meaning of concervative is to conserve the status quo.
Since 1980, the conservatives have been working to destroy the status quo.

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 8 of 51 (574636)
08-17-2010 1:06 AM


Conservatives used to be what we would call fiscal conservatives.
Then Nixon went after the religious "conservatives" from the south, and brought them into the Republican party. Prior that they were almost all democrats.
Now they are taking over the Republican party, and pretending that they are the real, and the only, conservatives.
Some of them would just as soon see a theocracy as long as their faction was the one in charge.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 9 of 51 (574639)
08-17-2010 2:05 AM


Some links and a quick thought or two
First of all, two past evcforum.net "conservatism" topics:
What is a "Real Conservative"? - The American Conservative magazine
What is a Liberal, and What is a Conservative?
A couple of (gag me) Conservapedia pages (after all, they should know what they are):
http://conservapedia.com/Paleoconservative
http://conservapedia.com/Neoconservative
Oddly enough, their currently expressed views on neoconseratives seem to be that they are liberals in disguise (or something like that).
Now, my short opinion on fiscal conservativism:
I think that the pre-Reagan fiscal conservative was one who believed in government spending money wisely.
But what grew out of Reaganomics was not so much to spend wisely but rather to just be cheap. To not spend money, even if it would be wise to do such on certain things, such as maintaining the public infrastructure. Alas, this cheapness does not extend towards the sacred cow that is the military-industrial complex.
See also that all important quotation I put in my "signature".
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 10 of 51 (574661)
08-17-2010 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
08-16-2010 11:18 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
Since the founders founded a republic (republican) and not a democracy (democrat) the tennants of the Republicans has traditionally been more conservative than those of the Democrats.
If those are the tenants of the Republican Party, does that make them the lessor of two evils?

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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 11 of 51 (574686)
08-17-2010 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
08-16-2010 11:18 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
You do realize that these are just names don't you. The original name of the Democratic Party, was the Democratic-Republican Party and they were the anti-Federalists. During the Civil War they were the party of the status-quo.
The Republican Party wasn't founded til just prior to the Civil War and were hardly the Party of the staus quo. Lincoln was a Republican.
Again, Buz you have shown a complete lack of grasp of reality. Everything can not be boiled down to a simplistic view.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 51 (574700)
08-17-2010 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
08-16-2010 11:18 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
Buz writes:
In Russia it would mean to conserve totalitarian socialistic principles.
Buz, you do know that Russia is a democracy don't you?
Buz writes:
Since the founders founded a republic (republican) and not a democracy (democrat) the tennants of the Republicans has traditionally been more conservative than those of the Democrats.
Republic or democracy have nothing to do with political parties. Your second point is equally untrue. Do you know as little about the GOP as you do about the Bible?
Traditionally it has been the Republicans that have called for Universal Health Care, controls on drugs, labeling and false advertising, bringing unions to the table as full partners in negotiations, placing limits on business practices, creating the Environmental Protection Agency, indexing Social Security, requiring minority participation in government contracts...shall I go on?
See this thread over at Dreamcatcher.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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misha
Member (Idle past 4627 days)
Posts: 69
From: Atlanta
Joined: 02-04-2010


(2)
Message 13 of 51 (574709)
08-17-2010 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
08-16-2010 11:18 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
Buzsaw writes:
Since the founders founded a republic (republican) and not a democracy (democrat) the tennants of the Republicans has traditionally been more conservative than those of the Democrats.
WOW!!!
How badly did you fail US History and Government?
The founders did not start a pure republic or a pure democracy. They started a Representative Democratic-Republic. The original intent was to take pieces of the early Roman and Greek political systems and create a balance.
The founders understood that a democracy would be overbearing requiring citizens to vote on every single action. It would be tumultuous and short-lived. They also realized that the original Roman republic was appointed by only a few powerful citizens and fell to corruption and eventually tyranny. So they blended the two. We democraticly vote for representatives to handle our republic.
I also don't understand how you could be so STUPID about the history of political parties. The Republican party DID NOT even exist at the framing of the Constitution.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 51 (574772)
08-17-2010 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Adequate
08-17-2010 7:38 AM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
Dr Adequate writes:
BUZSAW writes:
Since the founders founded a republic (republican) and not a democracy (democrat) the tennants of the Republicans has traditionally been more conservative than those of the Democrats.
If those are the tenants of the Republican Party, does that make them the lessor of two evils?
Yes, Dr Adequate, the Republicans have emmerged into nothing but the lesser of the two evils. GO un-official TEA PARTY!

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-17-2010 7:38 AM Dr Adequate has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 51 (574775)
08-17-2010 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
08-17-2010 7:25 PM


Re: Meaning Of Conservative
Yes, Dr Adequate, the Republicans have emmerged into nothing but the lesser of the two evils.
It's a joke. Tenants ... lessor ...
Did anyone get it?
GO un-official TEA PARTY!
Oh, them. Do you favor the Mad Hatter or the March Hare wing of the movement?

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