Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 346 of 406 (580028)
09-07-2010 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by AZPaul3
09-05-2010 2:01 AM


Re: Material v Motivation
You must love Stephen Lynch's "Alter Boy."
What a great Easter Sunday tune! I love all of Lynch's work.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2010 2:01 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 347 of 406 (580031)
09-07-2010 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Rrhain
09-05-2010 3:50 PM


So no, it doesn't answer the question. We have a very specific scenario that has nothing to do with your profession. It would be nice if you would stop avoiding the question and answer it.
If it doesn't have anything to do with me or what I do, then how can I be asked how I determine who goes away unhappy? In ANY other situation other than what I can control, (1) I don't care, it's off topic and irrelevant, but (2) I don't determine things for other situations.
Where the mosque is concerned, again, I don't care, build one on every corner. I would rather see a secular youth center, or maybe a library, but other than minor quibbles like that, I don't care what happens. How can I answer your question of who goes away unhappy in reference to the mosque? It's not my decision. If they have the money to buy land and build it, then enjoy.
Your question makes no sense.
So? Why does something that happens to everybody mean that everybody has to lose something?
It doesn't.
Why can't the "fair" thing be that we follow what is right rather than try to maintain some sort of faux "equality"?
Sure, why not? I don't know what this has to do with what I've said. In the case with Comedy Central, and ONLY in this specific case, someone got shit on, namely, Christians. Muslims were considered before showing the image, and, they decided not to show the image in that one particular episode that DID show Jesus shitting on Bush and the flag.
That is not fair. In that case, and in this specific case only, the right thing to do IMO was to show both, or shown none.
Huh? That makes no sense. We're not talking about who is getting the potshots thrown at them. We're talking about how we handle the response when potshots are thrown. Group A wants to construct something that Group B doesn't particularly like.
Dude, pick a fucking subject and stick to it. I thought you were going on about Comedy Central, now this question seems to be in reference to the mosque.
Who am I talking about, onifre? If you know who I'm talking about, you can give me the name.
Na, I'm satisfied saying we're talking about the same people. If this isn't good enough for you then you know quite well that I don't give a fuck.
When I say, "some Muslims," I have a specific group of people in mind by name.
Me too, and it's the same as you. The same as it is to anyone who wants to google it.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Rrhain, posted 09-05-2010 3:50 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2010 2:05 PM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 348 of 406 (580034)
09-07-2010 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Rrhain
09-05-2010 3:52 PM


Oni writes:
Would you consider reciting antisemitic messages on Egyptian TV offensive?
Rrhain writes:
What does this have to do with anything? Are they in the US? Were they the ones who wrote into Comedy Central?
Once again, you leap to vague, unnamed, undefined people. Who are the specific people you're referring to?
Who the fuck was talking to you and why the fuck would you think I was posting that in reference to our conversation?
Do you just need attention?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Rrhain, posted 09-05-2010 3:52 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2010 2:08 PM onifre has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 349 of 406 (580041)
09-07-2010 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Huntard
09-07-2010 7:41 AM


Re: But the point is
No, I'm not saying all muslims are, I realize there are many that denounce all of that. I am not speaking about them though, I am talking about the ones that are assholes.
That is one point, Huntard. Hanging a caricature of Muhammad is offensive to ALL moslims, radical, moderate, liberal.
I am not defending hate. I am making a point that people should grow a fucking pair and not be insulted by every little thing.
As usual with people in the west they cannot seem to appreciate the gravity of the signal being sent.
So the second point I am trying to make is that it is not such a "little thing" as it may appear in western eyes. To Islam caricatures, idols and images of God or Muhammad are hateful in the extreme. Just as hateful as the modern connotation of a swastika is to a Jew or the racists' use of nigger to a black.
If you can appreciate the revulsion of the two latter then you can recognize the revulsion of the former.
And to do such a thing is a blanket statement given to ALL Islam not just the few "assholes" you think are your target.
Again, I really don't care if someone wants to do such things as hang caricatures or paint swastikas as long as it is not done out of ignorance of a foreign culture and they understand, in full, the extremely hateful impact of their signal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Huntard, posted 09-07-2010 7:41 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Huntard, posted 09-07-2010 12:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 351 by Straggler, posted 09-07-2010 12:13 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 350 of 406 (580044)
09-07-2010 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by AZPaul3
09-07-2010 11:37 AM


Re: But the point is
AZPaul3 writes:
That is one point, Huntard. Hanging a caricature of Muhammad is offensive to ALL moslims, radical, moderate, liberal.
Perhaps, but the liberals don't seem to make such a big fuss about it, I think they understand that being irrational comes with a prize.
As usual with people in the west they cannot seem to appreciate the gravity of the signal being sent.
So the second point I am trying to make is that it is not such a "little thing" as it may appear in western eyes. To Islam caricatures, idols and images of God or Muhammad are hateful in the extreme. Just as hateful as the modern connotation of a swastika is to a Jew or the racists' use of nigger to a black.
If you can appreciate the revulsion of the two latter then you can recognize the revulsion of the former.
Let's take a closer look at this, shall we?
The word "nigger" is offensive to "black" people because it was used as a derogatory term by the slave traders that hurt their people immensely. The Swastika is offensive to a Jew because it is the symbol of the Nazi's, who hurt their people tremendously. The image of the prophet Mohammed is offensive to Muslims because, well, they say it is. Seems not at all similar to me. I can understand the former two, the latter is just an irrational belief. Strangely, I don;t go out of my way to pander to irrational beliefs. I will not intentionally offend them, but if a certain group
behaves like assholes, i can be a dick to that group.
And to do such a thing is a blanket statement given to ALL Islam not just the few "assholes" you think are your target.
I'm targeting just the "assholes", I can't help it that people are irrational. And I think that the ones who realize this will not make a big fuss about it.
Again, I really don't care if someone wants to do such things as hang caricatures or paint swastikas as long as it is not done out of ignorance of a foreign culture and they understand, in full, the extremely hateful impact of their signal.
The signal given off is a "This is what it feels like" signal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by AZPaul3, posted 09-07-2010 11:37 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by AZPaul3, posted 09-07-2010 1:01 PM Huntard has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 351 of 406 (580048)
09-07-2010 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by AZPaul3
09-07-2010 11:37 AM


Re: But the point is
AZ writes:
To Islam caricatures, idols and images of God or Muhammad are hateful in the extreme. Just as hateful as the modern connotation of a swastika is to a Jew or the racists' use of nigger to a black.
The hatefulness of both the term "nigger" and the use of the Swastika as a symbol are historically obvious.
But what is it that makes cartoons of Mohammed indicative of hatefulness towards Moslems?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by AZPaul3, posted 09-07-2010 11:37 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 352 of 406 (580049)
09-07-2010 12:14 PM


Koran burning in Fl
As reported by CNN:
quote:
The pastor of a Florida church planning to burn Qurans told CNN Tuesday while the congregation plans to go through with the action to protest the September 11, 2001 attack on the United States by al Qaeda, the church is "weighing" its intentions.
Terry Jones, pastor of Dove World Outreach Church in Gainesville, Florida, who was interviewed on CNN's "American Morning, said the congregation is taking seriously the warning from the U.S. military that the act could cause problems for American troops.
"We have firmly made up our mind, but at the same time, we are definitely praying about it," said Jones said.
The "Dove World Outreach Church" plans to reach out to the world on 9/11/10 by holding a good old-fashioned book-burning, and their target is specifically the Koran. Their pastor is the author of a book titled "Islam is of the devil." They sell t-shirts and coffee mugs with the book's title.
I think I've made clear in previous posts in this thread that I typically agree that offensiveness is basically inevitable, and in fact shouldn't be avoided for the most part. I've expressed that unpleasant speech is the only speech that actually requires protection, and that unless you are free to say things that everyone else disagrees with or even hates, then there is in fact no Freedom of Speech.
At the same time, this makes me freaking sick. Between major US religious leaders saying that America should ban the construction of any new mosques, the massive opposition to the Islamic center a few blocks from Ground Zero, and now a special event to burn Korans (on not only the 9th anniversary of 9/11, but also on a day that just so happens to coincide with the end of Ramadan this year)...
Aren't Americans basically telling Muslims worldwide that, despite the words of our leaders, we do consider ourselves to be engaged in a religious war? That this is another Crusade? How is all of this significantly different from Muslim demonstrators in Iran burning American flags and effigies of Presidents? America is the Great Satan, and Islam is of the devil?
Maybe I feel so disgusted because it's specifically a book-burning. I don;t know. But while I still say that this church has every right to express themselves even in such an offensive way, I can't imagine many forms of free expression that would be in worse taste, more offensive, and just outright more disgusting. This is right up there with a KKK cross-burning to me.
I value free speech. I think we need to take the bad with the good. I thinkw e are stronger overall because we tolerate the expression of opposing views so that nobody needs to fear imprisonment or other reprisals for simply following their conscience, and so that all points of view can be openly considered. I think free speech is the only way to prevent a society from stagnating, and in fact I think those nations who have the freedom of speech have proven that to be true when compared to those that do not.
I really, really don't like the message this sends. I don't think a worse course of action could be taken short of rounding up Muslims for concentration camps in terms of how Muslims in other countries will view us, and I really don;t like the fact that Americans as a whole are likely to be considered to be anti-Muslim Islamophobic Crusaders due to the actions of only a portion of our population - much like Americans tend to view Muslims as a whole based on the actions of only a portion of theirs.
I don't think that legally or ethically (if one values free speech) the book burning can be stopped unless the church congregation changes their minds. But I can't see many more effective methods to ensure America remains the Great Satan in the eyes of the Muslim world.
I hate that this country is so filled with idiots and bigots.

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 12:54 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 367 by nwr, posted 09-07-2010 3:13 PM Rahvin has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 353 of 406 (580052)
09-07-2010 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by riVeRraT
09-07-2010 7:34 AM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
I also think media is to blame for most of this, as usual. You could report about these things without creating a stir, and they don't because they want a stir.
Amen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by riVeRraT, posted 09-07-2010 7:34 AM riVeRraT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 354 of 406 (580056)
09-07-2010 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Rahvin
09-07-2010 12:14 PM


Re: Koran burning in Fl
That is just another great example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance at its finest. They are so ignorant that they cannot even see the absolute joke that the name of their organization and their behavior create.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Rahvin, posted 09-07-2010 12:14 PM Rahvin has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 355 of 406 (580057)
09-07-2010 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Huntard
09-07-2010 12:03 PM


Re: But the point is
The image of the prophet Mohammed is offensive to Muslims because, well, they say it is.
quote:
As usual with people in the west they cannot seem to appreciate the gravity of the signal being sent.
Oh, Huntard, there are some very powerful historical reasons for Islam's distaste of these things. In its infancy Islam was tolerant of pagans and polytheism. Idols were not for them since this was too much like praying to man-made stone things in place of God, but they let the pagans do their thing.
Then Muhammad become successful with is message.
It begins with Muhammad's fleeing from Mecca to Medina when the Idol Merchants started killing all his followers. They controlled Mecca at that time and saw Muhammad's teachings (monotheist) as cutting into their "trade." They went after Muhammad and the moslims with a vengeance. The ensuing wars were, well, quite bloody, like all wars. Eventually, Muhammad conquered Mecca where he destroyed the idols, caricatures and images in the Kabaal.
So, Islam's view of such idols as haraam stems from a bloody history of suppression as well as folding quite nicely into their monotheistic beliefs.
It is not a "just because I want it to be..." kind of thing.
But the western mind has little appreciation for such foreign history and its effects on culture.
[abe] My little screed here can hardly do justice to the depth of emotion. Kinda like saying jews were killed by Nazis. There is much too much more to this then a mere "war". Sorry.
Edited by AZPaul3, : edit added

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Huntard, posted 09-07-2010 12:03 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Coyote, posted 09-07-2010 1:14 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 357 by frako, posted 09-07-2010 1:16 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 362 by Huntard, posted 09-07-2010 2:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 356 of 406 (580059)
09-07-2010 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by AZPaul3
09-07-2010 1:01 PM


Re: But the point is
But the western mind has little appreciation for such foreign history and its effects on culture.
Seems the Muslim mind has little appreciation for such things as well.
Running airplanes into buildings and a host of other actions from various Muslim strongholds around the world have caused a lot of the problems Muslims are now facing in the US.
Many people don't want to see what is happening in France, with no-go areas reserved for Muslims only, happen here. Nor do people appreciate how much other religious are violently treated when Muslims become dominant. Examples of this are easy to find.
Sensitivity/diversity is a two-way street.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by AZPaul3, posted 09-07-2010 1:01 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 1:20 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 359 by crashfrog, posted 09-07-2010 1:21 PM Coyote has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 357 of 406 (580060)
09-07-2010 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by AZPaul3
09-07-2010 1:01 PM


Re: But the point is
in short a normal picture of mohamed to muslims looks like a picture of jesus tunging the pope to christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by AZPaul3, posted 09-07-2010 1:01 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 358 of 406 (580061)
09-07-2010 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Coyote
09-07-2010 1:14 PM


Re: But the point is
Running airplanes into buildings and a host of other actions from various Muslim strongholds around the world have caused a lot of the problems Muslims are now facing in the US.
And US and Western behavior caused problems that led to such actions.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Coyote, posted 09-07-2010 1:14 PM Coyote has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 359 of 406 (580062)
09-07-2010 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Coyote
09-07-2010 1:14 PM


Re: But the point is
Running airplanes into buildings and a host of other actions from various Muslim strongholds around the world have caused a lot of the problems Muslims are now facing in the US.
Just to demonstrate your consistency, can you link to a post where you blamed the plight of the Jews on the actions of Israel?
Or is "guilt by association" only for Muslims?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Coyote, posted 09-07-2010 1:14 PM Coyote has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 360 of 406 (580063)
09-07-2010 1:28 PM


Let me repeat: Sensitivity/diversity is a two-way street.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Rrhain, posted 09-07-2010 2:14 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 366 by crashfrog, posted 09-07-2010 2:51 PM Coyote has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024