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Author Topic:   Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 71 of 406 (575266)
08-19-2010 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
08-14-2010 4:17 PM


"onifire" writes:
Personally, I could care less if a mosque was built on ground zero. I don't think ground zero is anything more that a piece of property where something bad happened once. This personal attatchment to this piece of land as some kind of representation of freedom and America, to me, seems rather pointless.
I agree. We are being hypocrites if you ask me, expecting tolerance in Iraq, and Afghanistan, yet giving none here.
I mean there is a Mosque 4 blocks away already, and there is a non-denominational chapel in the Pentagon 80ft from where the plane crashed, and Muslims go there to pray.
I do sympathize with people though, not being able to distinguish the average Muslims from an extremest one. How are we to know the difference? They hide amongst themselves, and us too. But I don't think these people are Al-Quaeda, or the Taliban, looking to set up a place to pray next to ground zero. They probably are ashamed of terrorism.
I think we as Americans should embrace the idea, and show the rest of the world that we can just get along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 08-14-2010 4:17 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by nwr, posted 08-19-2010 10:13 AM riVeRraT has not replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 205 of 406 (576732)
08-25-2010 12:02 PM


Opening date of the Mosque
Not sure if it was discussed, but did anyone say that the planned opening date for the Mosque was supposed to be 9/11/11?
As I mentioned before, I am for letting them build a Mosque, but I should also add, that if they are constructing some kind of Shrine to what happened there, then I am obviously not for it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2010 12:08 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 207 by Omnivorous, posted 08-25-2010 12:10 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 208 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-25-2010 3:28 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 212 of 406 (576829)
08-25-2010 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by crashfrog
08-25-2010 12:08 PM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
"crashfrog" writes:
Why do you think Christians and Jews would fund and oversee a project to construct
I don't think anything. I was assuming that this particular group of Muslims would be under the watchful eye of homeland security, and other nay-sayers.
I later read that the date was false, and originally put out by a right wing extremist.
How the "ground zero mosque" fear mongering began | Salon.com
If the link is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2010 12:08 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 8:42 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 215 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-25-2010 10:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 213 of 406 (576830)
08-25-2010 8:34 PM


Listen
Listen, there is nothing wrong with questioning the motives of Muslims, since it was Muslims who declared Jihad on us. Of course I do not believe that every Muslim believes that all infidels should die. But they are taught to lie to us, and keep the truth to themselves. What does that leave us to think about them? How do we differentiate?

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-25-2010 10:49 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 219 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2010 12:05 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 222 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-27-2010 12:42 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 265 of 406 (578889)
09-02-2010 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by jar
08-25-2010 8:42 PM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
"jar" writes:
I'm sorry but why the hell should "this particular group of Muslims would be under the watchful eye of homeland security"?
For a couple reasons. 1, building a shrine to celebrate the terrorist attacks on ground zero is not a far fetched idea. That obviously has nothing to do with religion, and shouldn't be allowed.
2, where the hell did all that money come from?
I find it hard to discern the objectives of any religious group jar, including Christians. Religion can be a mask. While there is a separation of church and state, that doesn't excluded them from the law.
With all the attention they are getting, and the accusations, doesn't it just make good sense to make sure they are for real, and harmless? It would be stupid to not check them out. Just like all the other stupid mistakes our government has made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 8:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Omnivorous, posted 09-02-2010 11:32 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 270 by jar, posted 09-02-2010 11:47 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 280 by Rrhain, posted 09-03-2010 12:25 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 266 of 406 (578891)
09-02-2010 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Dr Adequate
08-25-2010 10:47 PM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
"Dr.Adequate" writes:
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a founder of Cordoba Initiative and serves as its board chair [...] At the FBI’s request after 9/11, he provided cultural training to hundreds of its agents, and the U.S. State Department under presidents George W. Bush and Barak Obama has invited him on several extended overseas speaking tours to represent a positive view of the United States and build international respect for our nation.
Which means absolutely nothing. It is a terrorists job to hide in plain sight. (not saying he is one or isn't) But like I was saying to jar, it makes sense to investegate further to calm everyone down.
WTF is the problem? If they are clean, they have nothing to worry about. People get investigated all the dam time, over stupid shit. there obviously is a stir, and it should be governments job to calm the people down. Make sure, this way there can be no " I told you so"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-25-2010 10:47 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Omnivorous, posted 09-02-2010 11:35 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 272 by Taz, posted 09-02-2010 11:51 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 283 by Rrhain, posted 09-03-2010 12:33 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 319 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-04-2010 5:07 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 267 of 406 (578892)
09-02-2010 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Dr Adequate
08-25-2010 10:49 PM


Re: Listen
Dr.Adequate" writes:
"By their fruits shall ye know them."
Stupidest thing you ever said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-25-2010 10:49 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 271 of 406 (578897)
09-02-2010 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Rahvin
08-26-2010 12:05 PM


Re: Listen
"Rahvin" writes:
Your statement is self-contradictory. You state that there is nothing wrong with questioning the motives of Muslims, and then contradict that statement by saying that not every Muslim believes that all infidels should die.
I don't find it contradictory at all.
All Muslim terrorists are Muslim. Not all Muslims are Muslim terrorists.
I agree.
Saying we should question the motives of Muslims because of the actions of a small minority of Muslims is like suggesting that we should question the motives of Christians because of Christian abortion clinic murderers.
Why not. There is a bunch of crazy Christians out there. We don't self police ourselves, so who is to blame? How to we differentiate?
There are precisely two reasons to stigmatize all Muslims and suggest that it's difficult to "differentiate" or that it's okay to "question their motives:" bigotry and fear. I understand that it's extremely tempting and even easy to blanket all Muslims for the actions of a few - the terrorists make their religion such a focus as a justification of their actions that I'd even agree that it's difficult not to associate the religion in its entirety with terrorism.
Woa, I am not blanketing all Muslims. I do admit, that I am ignorant as to how to tell the difference between a good Muslim, and a bad one. If it were Christians we were talking about, I would feel more confident in discerning. The problem is, this time, that there is a large group of people accusing them of something, and it needs to be cleared up. I am not saying we should do this all the time.
Christian abortion clinic terrorists make a similarly strong focus on their religion as justification for their actions.
But it is easily argued that those Christians are clearly not following their religion. In the Koran it clearly states that a Muslim must kill those that will not follow. There is a big difference. But that is not the whole picture, or the whole argument, that is only it in a nut shell.
Bullshit. I have identified several in my time. It's not hard once the talking starts. If I thought they were up to something, I would report them. It doesn't seem to me like there is enough of that going on with Muslims. They hide among themselves. Some of it is fear driven, so I can't say that I totally blame them.
Be very, very careful that you don't fall into that trap. Al Qaeda does certainly use their interpretation of the Koran as a justification for their vile acts...but the vast majority of Muslims would no more follow religious instructions to kill an infidel than your average Christian would stone a rebellious child to death.
No where does it say that you should stone a child. That's OT shit.
You cannot question a person's motives simply because they share the name of their religion with a bunch of lunatic murderers, for the same reason I can't question your motives simply because you share the name of your religion with another bunch of lunatic murderers.
I sure can, it's my right, and I'm not being prejudice, or bigoted for doing so. I do not assume they are guilty first. Muslims expect sensitivity when we are in their countries, why is it not being reciprocated? It raises a flag.
Why do you think apologetics exists? People are associated with religion all the time. The second I say I am a Christian, the ax falls on certain subjects. That's life, get over it. If they are clean, then there is nothing to worry about, and they can build their Mosque where ever they want.
A problem exists, and it needs to be resolved. I am totally for them being able to build it there, but I have no way of knowing what there honest intentions are.
It's like when people in here accused Christians of exploiting people, when they go to poor countries to feed them. Those same people have no problem with the Mosque though. This just proves their prejudice towards Christianity.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2010 12:05 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2010 12:06 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 273 of 406 (578900)
09-02-2010 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by jar
09-02-2010 11:47 PM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
"jar" writes:
BUT, I also see nothing wrong with some group doing that if they wanted to.
You are sacrificing our safety, and our freedom just to dis-agree with me. That is what it seems. I agree that there is plenty of hate groups in America (as I pointed out already) and it is well within their right to do so. But we are at war jar. And when you are at war, you don't let the enemy set up camp in your fucking house.
We should have let the Germans build their first jets back in WW2 here, because there is the constitution..... Hitler could have gave is speeches on the white house lawn too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by jar, posted 09-02-2010 11:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Nij, posted 09-03-2010 12:47 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 293 by jar, posted 09-03-2010 9:30 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 274 of 406 (578902)
09-02-2010 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Taz
09-02-2010 11:51 PM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
"Taz" writes:
So, since I don't carry anything illegal in my car or my house I should support them being able to search my house and car at will? Are you willing to give them permission to search you, your home, and your property any time?
No you retard. Make a valid comparison please.
If someone said you were carrying something, wouldn't you expect to be searched? Get over it.
Your neighbor can report you to social services, and you bet your ass you would be under a full investigation, whether you like it or not.
You don't read what I write, I explained it all already. Go back and read again...
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Taz, posted 09-02-2010 11:51 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Taz, posted 09-02-2010 11:59 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 316 by Rrhain, posted 09-04-2010 4:14 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 276 of 406 (578904)
09-03-2010 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Omnivorous
09-02-2010 11:35 PM


Re: If you have nothing to hide, you don't need rights.
"Omnivorous" writes:
An intense investigation of Beck, Limbaugh and Palin would calm me considerably.
Oh, and, um...you.
That okay with you?
Highly ok.
The first two are complete idiots, the third is half-2/3rds an idiot IMO. They disrupt the coutry with there stupidness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Omnivorous, posted 09-02-2010 11:35 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Omnivorous, posted 09-03-2010 12:25 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 277 of 406 (578905)
09-03-2010 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Taz
09-02-2010 11:59 PM


Re: Opening date of the Mosque
"Taz" writes:
What's your address? I'm going to tell them you got half a pound of drugs hidden up your butt.
I'll just tell them I got it from you, and that you smuggled 10 times that amount in your ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Taz, posted 09-02-2010 11:59 PM Taz has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 278 of 406 (578907)
09-03-2010 12:06 AM


But the point is
The point is, that is not ok either Taz. If you make a story like that, then you are just harassing, like the people who are against building the Mosque. They are at fault, if there is nothing wrong with the Muslims building the Mosque, and they should suffer some kind of repercussion for it. Look at what they are putting these poor people through.
I also want to add, that I have been discussing this with friends and family, and I am quite surprised at how people feel. All of my liberal friends and family had something to say about it. Just about everyone had something to say about it. Actually for the first time, I feel separated from a group of people(friends and family) on an issue, and it bothers me. I am a bit confused.

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Taz, posted 09-03-2010 12:38 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 296 of 406 (578997)
09-03-2010 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by hooah212002
09-03-2010 12:06 AM


Re: Listen
Um what does Romans 1:24-32 have to do with what I am saying?
"Hooah212002" writes:
Sorry bud, you either accept it all or accept none of it. Without the OT, jesus is pixie dust.
Which is a totally ignorant statement. You haven't made a point for anything. There is nothing in there that tells me to kill people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2010 12:06 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2010 11:44 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 297 of 406 (578998)
09-03-2010 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Rrhain
09-03-2010 12:25 AM


"Rrhain" writes:
What is fueling your panic attack?
I am not having a panic attack. I am for the building.
Fox. It came from Fox. Are you saying that Fox News is actually a Muslim conspiracy?
I heard that fox supported it, I did not know it was monetary. It was reported (by Fox) that the funding was under question.
And given all the paranoia you're displaying, doesn't it just make good sense to make sure that you, too, are harmless? After all, it's the Christians just like you who are the ones most likely to cause widespread violence here in the United States. How many more delusional Christians have to attack innocent Muslims before we should start watching all of you?
I agree, Christians are dangerous. And I am not paranoid. I am just stating facts.
Without any particular reason, it would be idiotic to do so for it would set the precedent that the government has any business in being the paranoid lunatic you seem to want it to be.
But there is a reason. That is what I am saying. Haven't you been reading what I said? There is something going on, and the people who are wrong, need to be found out. Either the Muslims are wrong, or the people accusing them are wrong. They both need to be investigated, and this stupidity put to rest.
It is not right that people can falsely accuse the Muslims like they are, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Rrhain, posted 09-03-2010 12:25 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Rrhain, posted 09-04-2010 4:06 AM riVeRraT has replied

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