|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Why complex form requires an Intelligent Designer | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
KBC1963 Inactive Member |
Hello everyone,
I would like to discuss this essay that I have put together which I believe poses a new angle on the Intelligent design POV.I feel tht this POV will form a distinct method for scientists to confirm the necessity of a designer for comples functional mechanical form (life) This essay is basic in its design but it can become quite involved as more information dealing with specifics arises, so don't be put off by its simplicity of original form. ------------------------------------------------------------------- This paper is for all of those people that have lookedat the structure exhibited by life and thought it was beyond the possibility of evolutions mechanism to acheive. For most people making this assertion turns into an argument from incredulity because you can't explain exactly what makes such structures impossible for evolution to form. This problem is about to end. The answer to why random mutation can't create complexmechanical formation is because of the infinite possibilities for 3 dimensional geometry. Our DNA provides the blueprint for every structure formedin our bodies. DNA codes for every aspect of 3 dimensional form that we see, such as the femur of a sauropod, the largest of which is about 6 1/2 feet tall. Pictured below is a man standing next to a giant femur: USAHA188: Situs Judi Slot Pulsa Online Tanpa Potongan And this same DNA can also code for the same bone in theShrew [Microtus agrestis] which has a femur length of approximately 15mm or about 1/2 inch. This observation opens up some undertanding as to what is possible for the DNA to form, but it doesn't truly open your eyes until you understand a little bit about 3D geometry. In school we all touched on geometry in math class and we have all seen the various forms such as cubes and spheres and that was no big deal as these were just common shapes that made sense, however geometry is a much greater tool for understanding than you thought. 3 dimensional geometric forms are so versatile that they can't all be defined, they are in fact infinite in possibility. As I showed above the 3 dimensional form of just a single functional bone type within a living system can exist in very extreme sizes, but that is just the tip of the range of what possible shapes can be coded for by DNA. What you don't see is all the other possible shapes that DNA can code for. The 3 dimensional geometry of a femur can be infinitely configured, it can be most any of the shapes listed below or it could incorporate any of these geometries as part of its shape: polygon, bicentric polygon, concave polygon, constructiblepolygon, convex polygon, cyclic polygon, decagon, digon, dodecagon, enneagon, equiangular polygon,equilateral polygon, henagon, hendecagon,heptagon, hexagon, Lemoine hexagon, Tucker hexagon, icosagon,swastika, octagon, pentagon, cyclic pentagon, regular polygon, regular decagon, regular dodecagon, regular hendecagon, regular hexagon, regular icosagon, regular octagon, regular pentagon, star polygon, decagram, dodecagram, octagram, heptagram, hexagram, nonagram, pentagram, triangle, acute triangle, anticomplementary triangle, equilateral triangle, excentral triangle, tritangent triangle, isosceles triangle, medial triangle, auxiliary triangle, obtuse triangle rational triangle, right triangle, 30-60-90 triangle, isosceles right triangle, scalene triangle, Reuleaux triangle. parallelogram, rhombus, Lozenge, rhomboid, Penrose tile, Penrose dart, Penrose kite, rectangle, diamond, Harborth's tile, square, trapezium, isosceles trapezium, quadrilateral, cyclic quadrilateral, tetrachord, chordal tetragon ? Brahmagupta's trapezium, equilic quadrilateral kite, rational quadrilateral, strombus, tangential quadrilateral, tangential tetragon, trapezoid, isosceles trapezoid, Curved, annulus, arbelos, circle, disc, Archimedes' circle, Bankoff circle, circumcircle, excircle, incircle, nine-point circle, crescent, lune, oval, Reuleaux polygon, rotor, Reuleaux triangle, sphere, salinon, semicircle, triquetra, Archimedean spiral, cubocycloid, deltoid, ellipse, smoothed octagon This list is by no means complete, these are just the shapesthat we have assigned names to for communication purposes. The reality is that the range that geometric shapes can exist in is infinite. DNA could be coded to cause an infinite range of possible forms just for one single bone, however, when it comes to functional interactive mechanical form there is an extremely finite range of possibilities that will allow for optimal functionality in a mechanical system or a chemomechanical system. Our bone structure is controlled from the begining of our existence till our death. Bone is constantly being remodelled as we grow and it requires control throughout its existence or it will cease to be an optimal component within our mechanical system. One of the best ways to visualize the level of control needed to keep our bone structure relative mechanically is to see what the structure of the bone is made of. Osteoblasts are the cells that form new bone, they are approximately 20 microns in diameter, which is equal to about one thousandth of an inch. So every square inch of bone surface has about 1,000,000 Osteoblasts. All of these cells in each bone must conform to the blueprint provided by the DNA in order to allow for optimal mechanical form and function to exist within our living system. Now that we have delved into the enormity of whatcomprises mechanical form we can confront the evolutionary mechanism of random mutation head on. The evolutionist belief that your structure can be randomly found by mutation of genetic structure is only realistic if there are finite possibilities for a form to exist in. Their theory that by randomly changing the code they can eventually hit a shape that can be selected is unfounded in reality. It becomes impossible when confronted with infinity for possibilities that only contain a tiny range of working possibilities. One further wrinkle that we should note from currentresearch is shown below: Quantitative Trait Loci for Femoral Size and Shape ina Genetically Heterogeneous Mouse Population Suzanne K. Volkman, Andrzej T. Galecki, David T. Burke, Michael R. Paczas1, Maria R.Moalli1, Richard A. Miller, & Steven A. Goldstein1. AbstractThe aim of this study was to examine the genetic effects on cortical bone geometry. Genotypes from 487 mice were compared to geometric traits obtained from CT. We found 14 genetic markers that associate with geometric traits, demonstrating the complexity of genetic control over bone geometry. PubMed &db=PubMed&list_uids=12929939&dopt=Abstract Our DNA controls bone form by a multitude of separategenetic influences and any one of these genetic influences has an infinite range of possible values. Therefore we can now show that our bones shape is not just infinite, it is 14 times infinite because of the vast array of other parameters that accompany mechanical form. Remember, each bone must grow in accord with the rest of the bones in your body so You must also consider time and rate of growth parameters for the entire life of the mechanical system and any of these parameters can have a nearly infinite value. With an infinite range of possible shapes and propertiesrandom mutation has no hope of providing continuous selectable changes over time to create the variety of comlex mechanical forms we observe in living systems. The only possible mechanism that can provide for the patterns of mechanical form is intelligence since it can logically choose the extremely minute functional possibilities from within a sea of infinite nonfunctional possibilities. Evolution is now checkmated by a logical and definablereason, and we can infer directly the necessity of an Intelligent Designer.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Welcome to EvC. Im gonna give you a chance to respond to the forum and promote you to Intelligent Design.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The definition of this forum is Is evidence of the divine apparent in the design of nature itself?. When you talk of an Intelligent Designer, you can only mean one of three sources:
1) Humans 2) Aliens from another planet. 3) God--by definition a supreme Being.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Perhaps, but no one claims that random mutations by themselves are all that is necessary for evolution to occur. You forgot the take into account natural selection. Random mutation with a nonrandom selection process just might be able to produce these forms. "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -- Thomas Paine
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RickJB Member (Idle past 4991 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
The only possible mechanism that can provide for the patterns of mechanical form is intelligence since it can logically choose the extremely minute functional possibilities from within a sea of infinite nonfunctional possibilities. Why is a "logical choice" needed? Cannot the physical nature of the material itself (and the environment in which it operates) dictate structure? Ever seen a snowflake? Snowflakes and Snow Crystals Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
KBC1963 Inactive Member |
I am not sure if this is a response to my post or not I will await further information.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
KBC1963 Inactive Member |
Quote "Perhaps, but no one claims that random mutations by themselves are all that is necessary for evolution to occur. You forgot the take into account natural selection. Random mutation with a nonrandom selection process just might be able to produce these forms."
I have indeed taken NS into account. NS can only select from what is presented therefore it is fully upon random mutation to make the structure for NS to choose it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
subbie Member (Idle past 1255 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Your argument assumes two things for which there is no foundation.
First, that there are an infinite number of possible genetic combinations and that these possible combinations could produce an infinite number of possible bone shapes. Second, that the genetic combination that produces a bone shape for a given organism is simply plucked at random from among the infinite number of possible combinations. Unless and until you can support both of these assumptions, your observation is about as interesting as noting that everyone's legs are just long enough to reach the ground. Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
KBC1963 writes: Evolution is now checkmated by a logical and definablereason, and we can infer directly the necessity of an Intelligent Designer. I can't comment on the biology but it would seem to me that evolution can't be ruled out the basis that you outlined if you accept the concept that evolution could have been intelligently designed. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
KBC1963 Inactive Member |
Quote "Why is a "logical choice" needed? Cannot the physical nature of the material itself (and the environment in which it operates) dictate structure? Ever seen a snowflake?"
Mechanically functional form has no law to cause it to arise therefore it must be formed some other way.Our environment cannot dictate form otherwise you could not get diversity. A snowflake follows rules of form according to atomic structure of water. Your bone structure has no atomic structure to cause a specific formation, thus you can have a bone in the shape of a femur or a pelvis, both of which are distinctly different in mechanical function and form.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
If you have, then you have done so incorrectly. Random occurrences with a non-random selection process can reduce the odds against a improbable event. This is well known. Gamblers use this to their advantage. In computer science genetic algorithms produce solutions to problems too complex to be designed by a designer. You are assuming that the probablities of each possibility is independent, but they are not; natural selection eliminates most of the possibilities.
You are misapplying probability. My guess is that you don't have much training in probability, and I am certain you don't have any training in biology. The entire OP shows a lack of understanding of the subject matter. "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -- Thomas Paine
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taz Member (Idle past 3292 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
KBC writes:
Forgive me, but it really looks like you are using a very cleverly disguised creationist strawman. You worded your 'essay' to sound like the entire bone just popped up from mutation overnight. In other words, you are arguing from the point of view that evolution says something like the mandible just came into existence fully formed fully functional. That's not how evolution works! I have indeed taken NS into account. NS can only select from what is presented therefore it is fully upon random mutation to make the structure for NS to choose it.
PS You're not talking to a bunch of dumbasses. Flashy words and clever sentences won't impress anyone here. Edited by gasby, : further thought
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
anglagard Member (Idle past 837 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
KBC1963 writes:
Our environment cannot dictate form otherwise you could not get diversity. What is this statement supposed to mean? I would say that it would be a bit difficult for people to breathe on the bottom of the ocean, or for most fish to walk around in the desert. Environment cannot dictate form?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RickJB Member (Idle past 4991 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
KBC1963 writes: Our environment cannot dictate form otherwise you could not get diversity. Environments (and selective pressures) vary, hence diversity.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024