God created evolution

granny magda writes,

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Okay, you have provided one single definition. However, this is not the only possible definition of the term "supernatural", there are others. You know this already of course; you will have seen them there on the page when you cherry picked the one most useful to your argument. This is a trick known as "equivocation".
You don't get to enforce which meaning of a word you prefer to use. There are plenty of other meanings of the word "supernatural" that do not entail anything "all knowing, all powerful, all loving and eternal" as you put it. You've already been shown several examples of supernatural beings that do not fit these criteria.

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It occurs to me, that if you mean the Christian God, you could just say so. it would mean that you wouldn't have to go into all this odd business over the definition of supernatural beings. What you really seem to be getting at is that the Christian God is beyond our judgement.

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I gave the definition of a supernatural being from my belief in the God I believe in. I didn't think the defintion of a supernatural being was that important, assuming you would all know it was the God I believe in.
You challenged me and I gave the definiton of a supernatural being from the dictionary I cited.
I assumed that all would know I was referring to the God I have cited in the past, the God of Roman Catholicism.
I didn't for a moment imagine that my post would revert to a definition of a supernatural being.
Yes I do believe the God of the Roman Catholic church is beyond judgement by natural beings.
Dawkins and Mayr when judging the design of a supernatural being, a christian God, had no problem with stating that they as mere mortals, could judge the supernatual being. HUBRIS is the work I use for them and all who believe they can judge God.
Dawkins & Mayr fully knew who they were talking about when they judged God's design as defective.
I say to them "god is god, you are not" Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Dr. adequate posts,

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And yet there are all these people who go about saying that God is good and the Devil is bad. Perhaps you should explain your new doctrine to them.

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That is faith not judgement. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

ringo writes,

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There's nothing in the definition you provided that has anything to do with judgement.
We can - and do - judge the creation as imperfect. The question is why is it imperfect?

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The definition I posted from the dictionary states that a supernatural being is beyond the understanding of science. How can a natural being judge something he or she cannot understand, unless they are judging form their standards not a supernatural being's.So I am saying that a human cannot judge the creation of a supernatural being. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

What evidence do you have that these "supernatural" critters even exist (other than in the human imagination)? Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

coyote writes,

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What evidence do you have that these "supernatural" critters even exist (other than in the human imagination)?

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Please read my initial post on this forum. I said if you accept the idea of a supernatural being.

So you have no problem with murderers, rapists, paedophiles, etc.?
You never judge any human? Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Let's instead accept the idea that all the characters and places in Lord of the Rings are real. That would be a lot more interesting.Or Star Wars.The evidence is about the same for all of these, i.e., none.Speculating on the characteristics of imaginary/literary characters is nothing more than literary criticism, or a thought experiment if you will. It should not be confused with anything for which there is empirical evidence.If one wants to posit that "God created evolution" I would think it would be first necessary to show that God/god/gods exist(s). Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

As I already said in Message 87, of course we are judging from our own standards. They're the only standards we can use. You have no basis to claim that a supernatural being has standards that are somehow "superior" to our own. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

Hi Shadow, Right, okay. Of course, if you had simply said God all along, people need not have wasted their time explaining to you that leprechauns aren't all knowing. You don't seem to be paying attention. We have already established that you gave a definition, not the definition, since there is more than one definition of the term supernatural. But let's forget about that for now and concentrate on your larger problem. Right. So when Christians say that God is good, they are making judgement upon God, and thus committing an act of hubris. If we cannot judge God, then we can make no positive judgements, as well as negative. it cuts both ways.That pretty much leaves the whole of Christianity defunct. It leaves the Bible authors themselves guilty of enormous hubris. You keep ignoring this point. You tell Dr A that you do not judge God, but have faith that he is good. that strikes me as even worse. For all you know, God could be every bit the monster that the Bible portrays him as, but you have no way of knowing. All you have is faith that he is good. That is rather pathetic. It is reminiscent of apologists for dictators, like those who still seek to excuse tyrants like Stalin or Mao. Yes, the playground insult argument. Very nice. Stay classy Shadow. Oh, you do know that this thread is supposed to be about how "God Created Evolution" don't you? Care to address that topic at all? No?Mutate and Survive Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

panda wrote,

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So you have no problem with murderers, rapists, paedophiles, etc.?
You never judge any human?

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I do not consider murders, rapists, pedophiles, etc. supernatrual beings. So yes humans can judge human action. I spent my whole professional life in law.
I think I am about posted out on this subject. Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

granny madga writes,

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Right. So when Christians say that God is good, they are making judgement upon God, and thus committing an act of hubris. If we cannot judge God, then we can make no positive judgements, as well as negative. it cuts both ways.

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No they are stating an act of faith. I look at the universe, molecular biology etc and I am convinced that nature coluld not do this on its own. Thus I believe a God created all that we have.

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That pretty much leaves the whole of Christianity defunct. It leaves the Bible authors themselves guilty of enormous hubris. You keep ignoring this point. You tell Dr A that you do not judge God, but have faith that he is good. that strikes me as even worse. For all you know, God could be every bit the monster that the Bible portrays him as, but you have no way of knowing. All you have is faith that he is good. That is rather pathetic. It is reminiscent of apologists for dictators, like those who still seek to excuse tyrants like Stalin or Mao.

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I see God's creation, I feel his love for me in what he has given me. If I beleved he wasevil I would not believe in God. What can I tell you?
If you do not have faith you don't know what a person of faith is feeling.
I may be wrong. But that is what I believe based on my life and experiences.
I suggest for everyone, that they make a retreat for a week. Think about what they believe, read someone like Thomas Merton, I suggest "thoughts in solitude" and " Seven strory mountain", and I would hope you would feel the peace, humility, and joy that I fell about my life and my belief in God.
I suggest a Trappist abbey, for a non directed retreat.
Ok, enough preaching for me. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

But you said: So - can we judge humans or are we not the creation of a supernatural being? Edited by Panda, : typsoEdited by AdminPD, : Warning

Hi Shadow, Actually, that's exactly what I've been trying to impress upon you. You have simply decided, arbitrarily, to believe in a good God, despite the fact that you know nothing about him. You cannot judge God, either by your own standards regarding supernatural entities, or by objective evidence. You have a blind assumption, lead only by emotional appeal, that is all. I suspect that what you feel is nothing other than the love that is inside yourself. It is yours, part of you. You shouldn't cheapen it by attributing it to an unknowable outside agency. So you judge him to be good, because that is what you want to believe. And let us be clear, this is certainly a moral judgement, whatever you try to call it. You believe this despite the fact that you also believe that you cannot judge God. This practice of holding two mutually incompatible ideas is called No webpage found at provided URL: "cognitive dissonance". We all experience cognitive dissonance; it's just that your posts to this thread have contained some especially nasty examples of it.I think you have told me plenty. I think you've effectively told me that your faith rests upon a foundation of logical fallacy and emotion. I think that if you took the time to examine this house of cards, you would see how flimsy it truly is.Mutate and Survive Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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On two occasions I have been asked, — "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This thread ran amuck.Participants,Please reread Message 1 and adjust accordingly. I don't see how any of this discussion deals with the idea that God created evolution.If I am missing something, please summarize how the current discussion ties in with the original topic.ABE: Please stick to the topic or the thread will be closed permanently. Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List') thread.

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Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.Thank you
AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Removed: I'm closing this topic until tomorrow morning (Eastern Time) so that participants can note and read this Administrative Msg.

Saying that God created evolutions is completely antithetical to creationism and quite possibly sophistry to boot.Because God creates everything every step of the way out of thin air in the Bible.Except for Adam, which he uses clay. And then Eve with which he uses a part of Adam's rib.But Evolution does not create things out of thin air like creationism does.If God can create anything he needs out of thin air he doesn't need Evolution.If God is omnipotent he does not need Evolution.