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Author Topic:   how exactly does Israel stabilize the Middle East and why do we need Israel?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 91 of 108 (572699)
08-07-2010 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Coyote
08-06-2010 11:32 PM


Re: Kill them all?
And the answer is "Never again!"
Don't you get it?
Remember the holocaust? Surely you must remember that--it was in all the papers for a while.
Israel means that it may, hopefully, not happen again.
Because now the Israelis are safely surrounded by millions of angry Muslim jerks. Hoorah!
Really, in hindsight, couldn't they all have moved to New York or something?
But there are so many people, mostly on the left, who would love to see the Jews thrown under the bus. I never could understand the reason for that ...
You made it up, you supply the reason.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Coyote, posted 08-06-2010 11:32 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 92 of 108 (572700)
08-07-2010 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Huntard
08-07-2010 3:49 AM


Re: Kill them all?
Really? Why would we need Israel for us to never persecute Jews again, can't we just, you know, not do it again?
Couldn't you say that about any proposed remedy to any evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Huntard, posted 08-07-2010 3:49 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Huntard, posted 08-07-2010 8:48 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2383 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 93 of 108 (572701)
08-07-2010 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dr Adequate
08-07-2010 8:16 AM


Re: Kill them all?
Dr Adequate writes:
Couldn't you say that about any proposed remedy to any evil?
Yes. But isn't that what it comes down to anyway? I mean, if you really wanted to persecute the Jews, them having their own nation isn't gonna stop you, now is it? It'll make it a lot harder, sure, but ultimately, not persecuting the Jews is only possible when you just stop doing it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-07-2010 8:16 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-07-2010 9:22 AM Huntard has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 108 (572704)
08-07-2010 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
08-06-2010 8:21 PM


Re: 1967 Six Day War; Whose Aggression?.
jar writes:
You do understand that the 1967 WAR was a war of aggression by Israel?
In '67 I was watching the news and events leading up to that war closely, being so interested in it. I well remember the headlines the week before the war. Nasser, Prime Minister of Egypt: WE WILL DRIVE ISRAEL INTO THE SEA and assented to by every Muslim nation in the region, all armed by Russian Mig fighters Russian tanks and Russian armament.
ABE: Our interest in Israel not only related to keeping the militant expansionist Muslims of the region at bay, but to enhance our cold war ongoing at the time with Russia and the communist block of nations, all of whom also had a dog in the fight against tiny Israel, our only well armed ally in the gulf region.
Edited by Buzsaw, : As noted.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 08-06-2010 8:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 95 of 108 (572705)
08-07-2010 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Coyote
08-06-2010 11:32 PM


Re: Kill them all?
coyote writes:
So let me ask you this: why do you want the Jews thrown under the bus once again?
I assume you can show where I said I wanted to throw the Jews under the bus once again?
You keep repeating your mantra but you never explain why you think it is relevant or valid.
Why do we need Israel?
How does the existence of Israel stop Jews from being persecuted?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Coyote, posted 08-06-2010 11:32 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Buzsaw, posted 08-07-2010 9:12 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 96 of 108 (572706)
08-07-2010 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Buzsaw
08-07-2010 8:54 AM


Re: 1967 Six Day War; Whose Aggression?.
And so based on threats Israel attacked other nations.
That is a war of aggression Buz. Israel invaded Egypt just as Israel has invaded Lebanon and Syria.
But it still is irrelevant to the questions.
How does Israel stabilize the Middle East and why do we need Israel?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 08-07-2010 8:54 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 97 of 108 (572707)
08-07-2010 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
08-07-2010 9:00 AM


Re: Dude, you have your answers.
Jar, this is your classic response; to offer some nutty objection and incessantly repeat the answered questions. You're making an ass and a nusiance of yourself and you're cluttering up the site, racking up more thousands of posts 24/7. Give us a break from yourself.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 9:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 9:22 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 98 of 108 (572711)
08-07-2010 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Buzsaw
08-07-2010 9:12 AM


Re: Dude, you have your answers.
Buz writes:
Jar, this is your classic response; to offer some nutty objection and incessantly repeat the answered questions.
Buz, once again you support my position.
As you so kindly point out, the questions are still unanswered.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Buzsaw, posted 08-07-2010 9:12 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 372 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 99 of 108 (572712)
08-07-2010 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Huntard
08-07-2010 8:48 AM


Re: Kill them all?
Yes. But isn't that what it comes down to anyway? I mean, if you really wanted to persecute the Jews, them having their own nation isn't gonna stop you, now is it?
And if you really wanted to commit murder, the law wouldn't stop you. But that's not a satisfactory argument against having penalties for murder.
It'll make it a lot harder, sure, but ultimately, not persecuting the Jews is only possible when you just stop doing it.
But unsuccessfully persecuting the Jews is possible when they can kick your ass into the middle of next week whether you try to persecute them or not.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Huntard, posted 08-07-2010 8:48 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Huntard, posted 08-07-2010 9:29 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 101 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 9:37 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2383 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 100 of 108 (572715)
08-07-2010 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dr Adequate
08-07-2010 9:22 AM


Re: Kill them all?
Dr Adequate writes:
And if you really wanted to commit murder, the law wouldn't stop you. But that's not a satisfactory argument against having penalties for murder.
True.
But unsuccessfully persecuting the Jews is possible when they can kick your ass into the middle of next week whether you try to persecute them or not.
Also true. I guess I'm just too optimistic again, thinking people can be reasonable and not hate each other. Ah well, until that glorious day arrives, I guess having a state is the next best thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-07-2010 9:22 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 101 of 108 (572718)
08-07-2010 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dr Adequate
08-07-2010 9:22 AM


Interim summary
Dr A writes:
Huntard writes:
It'll make it a lot harder, sure, but ultimately, not persecuting the Jews is only possible when you just stop doing it.
But unsuccessfully persecuting the Jews is possible when they can kick your ass into the middle of next week whether you try to persecute them or not.
That is certainly a reason that Israel would make to explain their offensive capabilities, and it would be valid in that context, but I also need to point out that it ONLY involves the Nation of Israel, not "Jews". The existence of the Nation of Israel does not preclude Jews being oppressed anywhere else. It does NOT preclude another Holocaust or even another pogrom or expulsion.
The question is not "Why do Israeli's need Israel", I believe that is pretty clear. The question is "Why do we need Israel?" and so far only a few reasons have been put forth.
One reason mentioned was that we needed a military base. Reality though shows that we are precluded from using Israel as a forward base because US troops there would destabilize the region.
A second and unfortunately even more plausible reason is to draw attention away from the US, for Israel to become the focus of hatred instead of the US.
The third reason suggested is that the existence of Israel is somehow a requirement to hurry along Armageddon. Not sure why that would be something we need but look forward to seeing that explained.
Neither of those seems to be very honorable so the question remains. Are they the only reasons we need Israel?
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
Edited by jar, : add the third reason that has been presented. Don't know how I missed that one

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-07-2010 9:22 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Buzsaw, posted 08-07-2010 6:04 PM jar has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3039 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 102 of 108 (572730)
08-07-2010 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Coyote
08-06-2010 11:19 PM


Re: Kill them all?
I think some nutjob hacked into your account and is posting ridiculous comments on your behalf, Coyote.
You don't want the Jews to have their own nation.
So your particular religion awards you the pick of any real estate on the planet you wish? No, no, certainly not any piece of property. For the actual location, we turn to the OT and try to decipher where in fact those chosen people (and thank god they were the chosen ones, if not, fuck 'em, right?) get to set up camp...forever. What can be more reasonable and fair than that?
And if you dare question, why a jewish state? Well, the answer is quite simple... God promised it to them...in the book that they wrote.
Forgive him, Caesar — he is a barbarian and considers that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature.
Under whose kind ministrations would you have them live?
The same one the rest of us live in under. Why should that religion get any special treatment or consideration?
If we care so much about persecution of a religion, and mass slaughter, the why hasn't anyone from the US or the UN done anything about Tibet? Why? cause fuck 'em, that's why...
What can Tibet do for the US? Nothing.
What kind of stratigic or military advancement can Tibet give the US? None.
And yet we care about the jews for some reason? Bullshit. We need them and that piece of property... and that's the only reason the US helped establish that nation.
Maybe there are a few SS guards who haven't been caught who could fill in until new folks can be trained.
I think some nutjob hacked into your account and is posting ridiculous comments on your behalf, Coyote.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Coyote, posted 08-06-2010 11:19 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Coyote, posted 08-07-2010 10:57 AM onifre has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2194 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 103 of 108 (572735)
08-07-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by onifre
08-07-2010 10:50 AM


Re: Kill them all?
I think some nutjob hacked into your account and is posting ridiculous comments on your behalf, Coyote.
I like rooting for the underdog. I'm pulling for Tibet also.
And I am also wondering why the extreme left is so hateful when it comes to Israel, but falls over themselves for Castro and Chavez and the other socialist tinpot dictators. Riddle me that.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by onifre, posted 08-07-2010 10:50 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by onifre, posted 08-07-2010 11:22 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3039 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 104 of 108 (572745)
08-07-2010 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Coyote
08-07-2010 10:57 AM


Re: Kill them all?
I like rooting for the underdog. I'm pulling for Tibet also.
I'll let them know, but really, they need the support and military aid from nations capable of doing that. But, for political reasons, they will get none.
Why did the jews get special treatment?
Was it religious persecution that awarded them that land, or was it a political and stratigic move on the part of the US and UN?
And I am also wondering why the extreme left is so hateful when it comes to Israel, but falls over themselves for Castro and Chavez and the other socialist tinpot dictators.
Many, like you, also root for the underdog.
Note that I don't hate Israelis, or jews, I have an issue with the political aspect of the forced occupation of that land. I feel it was dishonest to point to the Torah as a legitimate case for the jews receiving that land. The US wanted a military strong hold in the Middle East, that was the reason for Israel. But we're supposed to swallow some nonsense about that land being the land that god promised them?
I would expect someone like yourself to agree that such a case, based on scriptural text, is bogus?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Coyote, posted 08-07-2010 10:57 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 108 (572797)
08-07-2010 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by jar
08-07-2010 9:37 AM


Re: Interim summary
jar writes:
One reason mentioned was that we needed a military base. Reality though shows that we are precluded from using Israel as a forward base because US troops there would destabilize the region.
A second and unfortunately even more plausible reason is to draw attention away from the US, for Israel to become the focus of hatred instead of the US.
The third reason suggested is that the existence of Israel is somehow a requirement to hurry along Armageddon. Not sure why that would be something we need but look forward to seeing that explained.
Neither of those seems to be very honorable so the question remains. Are they the only reasons we need Israel?
See Jar? This is what I mean. Just seven messages back I posted two additional reasons highlighted in pink, yet you simply waived them off calling for reasons, as you've incessantly been repeating all the way down thread from your OP.
Message 94

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 9:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 08-07-2010 6:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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