banning burqas

Nonsense.Terrorism is not a major threat to the entire world's population.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

There is a critical distinction. Women under the control of the Taliban, or other form of repressive government, force women to wear them. They aren't forced to wear it in Western society. Many muslim want to wear it of their own volition, and I don't see anything wrong with that. It's their problem if they want to succomb to misogyny; their choice.

---

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

But in the end, they are all cultural pressures.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

How is a burqa different?Can a bomb be hidden under a sports coat, a shirt, pants, in a backpack, grocery bag, briefcase?Why is a burqa different than any of the others?

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

But ONLY women wear evening gowns, bra's, bikini's, etc in Western society. Does that mean we should ban them? No, it's just a social thing. Just like Western society has clothing that almost only pertains to women, it's the same in Middle Eastern cultures... Wearing hijabs and burqa's is their form of clothing, and some prefer it.What this sounds like to me is that you want to punish people who don't think like you. I can see no other relevance in you wanting to ban it. If I'm totally off-base, plead your case.

---

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Not nearly as big a threat as is the fear of terrorism. Nor is it as big a threat as bigoted, jingoistic, pandering, warmongering state leaders. There is no war on terror.

---

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

You are off-base. But I don't blame you. My thought process and posts on this topic have not been refined. I'm thinking out loud.I have never said we should ban the Burka. I'm interested in "outing" anyone who may force women to wear it (and, of course, who force them to do other things that are far more serious).I do not hold the opinion that you do that women in the West are free to choose whether or not they wear it. At least not all of them. I am very happy to accept that there may be many Muslim women who are as free as any other woman to make their own choices. But there are undoubtedly many Muslim women in the West who are heavily intimidated by their family/sub-culture into living a very restrictive life against their wishes. As I've said before, it is on a completely different scale. There are pressures on women to wear certain types of clothing, some of which are very bad for them, such as high heels. That's a valid matter for discussion. It's a bad thing if a women were to lose her job or whatever for not wearing high heels. But I've never heard anyone risk being defamed or outcast from society for not wearing high heels. If anything, these days they'd probably gain social respectability for making such a stand.

Hi JUC, Yes it does;

quote:

---

I wanted people who walked past me in the street to know that I am a Muslim and that I am proud of my religion, heritage and culture.

​

In many ways I saw the hijab as an act of solidarity with Muslim women all around the world.

---

You may not consider that a "proper insight". Tough. It's her reason. She doesn't have to justify herself to you. I think you'll find that her reason is the most common reason given for wearing the veil; women want to publicly identify as Muslims. You may consider that somehow improper, but frankly, it's none of your business how Muslim women want to dress. What book is this? Is it set in the Bizzarro world? Britain is not part of "the Muslim world". British-born women are patently not "from the Muslim world". If you are going to use phrases to mean whatever you say they mean, please let me know next time. It'll make it easier to spot the transition between Jumped-Up-Chimp-speak and the English language. The answers to those questions are a) none of your business and b) none of your business. Their religious decisions aren't your concern or mine. We exercise freedom of religion in Britain. Whether or not you or I feel that their religious decisions are justified is immaterial. So let's be clear about this; you are actually advocating that women - UK citizens no less - should be forced to ask for the permission of a man to whom they might not even be related before they can set foot outside wearing what they please? I hope you realise that this is a clear breach of human rights legislation? And you're going to fix that by making these women subservient to you instead. Nice work Chimp!You are not going to remake a whole culture in a style more to your liking with childishly crude legislation such as you have suggested. You are advocating a sledgehammer where even a scalpel would be too much. Your suggestion (apart from being legally absurd) would only cause uproar. Muslims would not obey it. There would be mass disobedience. There would be outrage amongst Muslims, who would fell that they were being discriminated against. It would fan the flames of Islamic extremism and directly lead to thousands more women being ordered to wear the veil. Ooh! I know! Why not make them wear yellow stars?You do not get to force other people to carry your propaganda. That is a totalitarian attitude and I am surprised at you. You are coming across like some BNP thug who wants his own warped idea of righteousness imposed upon others whether they like it or not. I have already demonstrated that not all woman are forced to wear these outfits, so your comment is a non sequitur. You do want to force the issue though. You want to force women to behave in a way that pleases you so that they don't have to suffer the indignity of being forced to behave a certain way by men. I have never heard anything so plainly self-defeating. I didn't say I approved of or agreed with their reasoning. That doesn't even matter. All that matters is that women choose to wear these things. That's it! That's all that matters! Everything else is just waffle. Their reasons are none of your damn business, none of mine, none of anybody's business except their own. You have no right to tell them what they can or cannot wear or what hurdles they must jump through in order to wear what they please.Your childish suggestion would have only two effects. First it would enrage every Muslim in Britain, pushing some past breaking point. This is after all, the exact kind of crap that actually motivates UK Muslims to embrace extremism, reject civil society and engage in terrorism. Secondly, since those men who do force their wives to cover up are absolutely not going to wear your silly slogans, all you will have achieved is getting them locked in their houses. Nice work Chimp! You have just victimised the exact people you should be wanting to help!Your suggestion is absurd, unrealistic, petulant, hateful, moronic and childish. It seems to be entirely motivated by your distaste for Islam rather than a genuine desire for social justice and women's rights. If you genuinely want to help Muslim women, I think the best thing you can do is stop typing.Mutate and SurviveEdited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.

I'm certain that there are many domineering, non-muslim husbands in the West who in some ways force their wives to do things they otherwise would do if they weren't married. Let's say he demands that she dresses chaste, and essentially makes her only wear long dresses because, in his mind, short skirts are slutty and men should only wear pants. Is he a misogynistic asshole for it? You and I would likely agree that he is, but no crime is being committed in the process. It therefore is a private matter that's between a husband and wife. If the wife gets fed up, she should leave.But what we don't do, and shouldn't do, is unilaterally say women can't wear long dresses because one dickhead husband forces his wife to wear one.I see the same principle applying here with the burqa. Private companies or public servants can make demands that society cannot, like dress codes. My job demands that I wear a military uniform, am clean shaven, and hair groomed within a standard. They can do that because I'm not forced to work there. I signed a contract saying I would comply with their standards.But this is saying that you cannot ever wear something walking down the street. That's absurd and very anti-west, in my opinion.Now, there once was a case (in Florida, I think) where a muslim woman refused to remove her burqa for a driver's license picture. Well, we don't need to kowtow to another societies standards in order to respect theirs. So guess what? She doesn't get to have a driver's license, period. I'm all for that, which is contrasted with the current case.But by banning it altogether, what precedent is established? There's no need, which leads me to believe that it's only about sending a message of "we don't like you or your kind around here. We're going to make it as difficult as humanly possible for you, so that you will assimilate."

---

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Hi Hyro, Well quite. In fact, I believe that controlling the way a spouse dresses is a very common form of domestic abuse. Domesticviolence.co.uk suggest to women;

quote:

---

Ask yourself these questions, and answer them honestly, to help determine whether your relationship is abusive or not:
...
3 Is your partner in control of the clothes you wear, the friends you see, your finances, or other general areas of your life?

---

So clearly this isn't restricted to Muslim households. It is in fact, a common form of domestic abuse. I am genuinely shocked at Chimp's naivete.We are not going to end domestic abuse by making abusers wear hats that read "I beat my wife!". Why Chimp thinks that his idea is any different is beyond me.Mutate and SurviveAbE; Here's a nice example. The abuser starts out by making reference to his girlfriend's breasts;

quote:

---

Keep them if you want, they look stupid. Keep ‘em if you want. Look stupid. See if i give a f*ck. They look like a Vegas whore. And you go around sashaying in your tight clothes. I won’t stand for that anymore.

---

He continues;

quote:

---

You go out in public and it’s a f*cking embarrassment to me. You look like a f*cking bitch in heat. And if you get raped by a pack of ni**ers it will be your fault. Alright? Because you provoked it. You are provocatively dressed all the time with your fake boobs that you feel you have to show off. I don’t like it. I don’t want that woman. I don’t want you. I don’t trust you. I don’t love you.

---

Of course, this isn't a Muslim. It's Mel Gibson. Clearly this is not simply a Muslim problem, it is a standard feature of domestic abuse.Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.

Yeah, the Chimp is usually so cerebral. I'm kind of surprised he's taking this position. But then, the UK, France, the Netherlands, etc does have a real problem on its hands with London turning in to Londonistan right before the eyes of its citizens.It reminds me of the hysteria in the US about how we're going to lose our cultural identity from the Mexicans.I understand people's concerns, but there is most assuredly good and ways to go about it. I see the burqa banning as a bit extreme.

---

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

So let's look at ways to prevent oppression of all women in the West instead of focusing on the ones that come from the East.

---

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

In their early career it's playball or go home. Refusing work is for those who have already made it. But they do in the countries that are trying to outlaw them. The countries you're speaking about would probably never outlaw them, so the point there is moot. It's only an argument for cultures where women do have freedom. Cool. And I'd be for that too.- Oni

Hyro says: BANG! Yes...this is what this is all about.

---

- xongsmith, 5.7d

Subbie says: LIKE, as in the facebook world.

---

- xongsmith, 5.7d